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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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quote:
Black culture grew out of a synthesis of many African cultures plus the culture of the American South. |
what the hell? the slaves had no connection with African culture. they were ripped from it and forced to repudiate all of their ancient culture. what you just said is a denial of the brutalities of the diaspora.
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There are culinary similarities (yams for example). |
yams were transported from Africa to the american south (just as cotton and rice were transported from Asia). this is irrelevent
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Now we have self-segregation and the hypenated Americans, I think, are indicative of that. |
You act like this is something new, like whites didn't self-segregate from everyone. When (some of) my ancestors came to American, they were called Italians. They were met my signs reading INA, Italian Need not Apply. It was multifunction, cuz it works for Irish too. You see, when they came over, they weren't considered real Americans.
The demand to be an Italian-American is not a demand to be Italian, it's a demand to be American. But then people don't like the way we are American. They say, noooooo, you can;t be Italian-American, you can only be an American. **** you. What the hell is wrong with being Italian? It's not a disease, there's nothing wrong with it. Don't you have enough problems in your life that worring about whether or not I like pasta?
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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the expulsion from Judea was no where near the severity of slavery.
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Lorizael
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The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
quote:
Originally posted by Lorizael
I call people whatever they want to be called, because I don't believe that I have any right to infringe upon anyone's identity. |
Then why don't you just let it go with that? What is so ****ing hard with respecting peoples' self-identity? |
Stop making assumptions. I do respect people's identity. But I don't respect people's identity for artificial things like race or religion or hairstyle. I respect it for their personality. I respect it for who they actually are.
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However, I still believe the term African-American, as well as all the other -American terms, to be foolish, and I'll tell you why. |
I don't really care. |
And yet you kept going. 
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Unfortunately, their creation of a single identity detracts from the identity of America as a whole, |
This is the essence of your objection. What it comes down to is, opressed groups are always belamed for their oppression. "African-Americans are treated differently because they call themselves a African-American." Okay, and why were they treated differently before the 1980s? Do you think racism just vanished? |
I never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Racism came about because a bunch of ignorant ****heads thought that if someone had black skin, it meant they were inferior human beings. Racism still exists today because there are still people who think that. The ability to end racism, however, does not exist because people continue to feel a need to segregate themselves from one another.
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In part, the call for the abolition of various hyphen-Americans is a call for the abolition of those groups. There should be no African-Americans. There should be no Irish-Americans. We should all watch the same tv shows, eat the same food, dress the same way, and listen to the same music. People should feel no connection to anywhere but the United States. People should feel no connection to others with similar cultural backrounds.
Why can't you look upon our differences as a strength, that what makes America great is that there are so many different kinds of Americans? |
I think people should feel connected to each other because of the bonds they create, not the artificial bonds that have totally subjective meanings and unwanted connotations.
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What if we don't want to be like you? What if we think your culture sucks? That you're boring? Why can't you respect our right to be different? Why does our difference scare you? Why does it offend you? Why should we be forced to be like you in order for you to respect us? Why do you need to make us just like you? Why do you need to ethnically cleanse us? |
Who the **** said anything about my culture? Who the **** said I was scared or offended? I don't give a **** where you come from. It has no bearing whatsoever on what I think of you. I make opinions based on your personality.
Likewise, I hate it when people call me white. I don't want to be identified by my race, by my sex, by my heritage, by my religion. I think this merely creates walls that have to be overcome. I'd rather create community than rely on the community that we're supposed to live in.
That's why I use the internet for communication so often. I had no idea you were of Irish and Italian descent, and I didn't want to know. Now that I do know, it doesn't change what I think of you. I still respect you for your political ideals, and dislike the extremes to which you go. I have thought these things for a long time, and nothing about the identity you give to yourself is going to change that.
You didn't call me a racist, but you came damn close. Ethnic cleansing. Synonym for genocide. I think I'm too lazy to hit that report button. But for ****'s sake, stop tyring to anger us, it won't get you anywhere.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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this debate is getting weird with the accusations of racism thrown about (I'm only calling chegitz a racist to be ironic) so let me just sum this up to get this back on course...
the crux of this arguement is over one issue, the two sides having little metaphors to represent their position. one, the melting pot, theory, which Lorizael and Imran support, champions assimiliation. Racism can only be overcome when we end that which is both the cause and the symptom of racism: division and segregation.
To them, racial labels are a new form of segregation. they are an indication of racism as well as the mother of future racism. transcending race, nationality, ethnicity, etc. and realizing that you and all people are individual humans is the goal of this viewpoint.
Chegitz, however, champions the salad bowl metaphor which sees America as a place of independent cultures being together but remianing independent. they are a part of the whole but are not of it. they can exist seperately.
this viewpoint combats the assimiliation position calling it inherently wrong but to be assimiliated, one has to repudiate one's own culture and accept a new one; that is, the American one. This in itself is bothersome as it would mean that assimiliation destroys cultures and denies people their histories.
furthermore, the so-called American culture which would transcend race is problematic as there is no set American culture. Who determines what is American? The majority? then the culture will be one of Anglo-German whites with some irish thrown in... the culture of baseball and apple pies? of suits and ties? of sex, drugs and rock and roll? of country music and pick up trucks? of gangsters and money? there is simply no proper American culture for people to assimilate to, making the assimiliation arguement impractical.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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Chegitz:
if you look at history, there has been a tendency for bonds to move up and beyond blood. the first consortiums of people were between immediate family members. These evolved into clan and tribal relationships between relatives who were a bit more distant (such as cousins). These tribes gave way to city-states and kingdoms and for the first time, people existed with those they were not clearly related to.
But kingdoms and nations were still based on racial lines so there was a blood kinship between members of a country. With the emergence of Liberalism and communism, however, this tendency in history to only be among your own blood relations ended. Liberalism championed individuality while communism championed a brotherhood of proletariat. an idealogy replaced the blood-ties of the past. the democratic US and the communist USSR were states with a racially diverse population, united by a shared general idealogy.
i fear that racial pride is a stepping back in the progress of civilization. our chance at brotherhood among men may only be possible through idealogical ties.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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chegitz and Arrian, don't act like you weren't aware of my relative intelligence. i just use some so-called bad debate arguements like red herrings, strawman arguements, and ad hominems. frankly, i dont see the problem with using them. appeals to emotion are part of converting someone to your side.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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Chegitz:
quote:
If you have a problem with my ethnicity, **** off. |
this is a symptom of that recent disease called white guilt. someone like Lorizael feels (due to the pc culture but perchance also out of his own guilt) that he is obligated to note ethnicity by saying such things as African-American. This is bothersome to him as he feels that people are people and it don't matter what one's ethnicity is but he still feels bad that if he doesn't say african-american, he is a racist, a feeling probably strengthened by you calling him a racist.
the issue isn't what ethnicity you yourself call yoruself but what ethnicity he should call you. for someone who doesnt believe in ethnicities, being expected to call someone a specific ethnicity is bothersome.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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Arrian:
quote:
Speer, in the past, the vast majority of your posts that I've seen ranged from the use of "so-called bad debate arguments" to absolute gibberish. |
content should not be a judge of intelligence. If you disagree with mine (or sava's) positions completely, you inherently disagree with our reasoning and our assumptions and it can make us seem foolish.
and people mistake me for Fez a lot so some of these posts which you based your idea of me on might have been his.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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Chegitz:
a bit off of the main issue but i still have problems with the term African-American as opposed to Black or Black American.
I feel most blacks have a seperate identity, so seperate from Africa, that it should never be called African. If we were to simply have these identifications for purely racial reasons, then of course, african is fine as Blacks are of African descent; they are Negros.
But you yourself are not championing these hyphenated terms because of simple racial descent but because they represent cultural belongingness.
i contend that Black Americans have no cultural, artistic, or intellectual ties with Africa and a Black person wanting to be called African-American is silly as its historical revisionism.
facts:
-Blacks in America were torn from Africa
-Blacks in America were forced to repudiate their old ways through illiteracy, breaking of families, merging individuals who came from different tribes onto the same plantation, and sheer violence.
-Blacks in America were forced to accept the white man's culture of Southern American living and christianity
-Blacks have lived in America for 400 years with absolutely no contact with the African continent. this along is reason enough for them to have an independent culture.
the facts would dictate that there was no conceivable way that anything of traditional west africa remained among blacks.
you point to the jews as an example of a culture remaining intact but this is not a valid comparison firstly because the Roman-brought jewish diaspora was not as brutal in destroying jewish culture as slavery was. Furthermore, the jews moved about the world with their scriptures intact. Black Americans had no book of customs and ways to bring on the slave ships. furthermore, Ethiopian Jews DID have contact with the rest of the world through jews in Yemen and other areas under Arab control
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11-06-2004 00:11
Good lord, Speer acting as a mediator. . . . and getting it right.
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