11-06-2004 02:00									#181
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see now, i did that little moderator schpeel a minute ago to re-direct, re-invigorate the debate and prevent more insults but those are your responses, chegitz? telling me i'm ignorant and cursing at Lorizael?

	11-06-2004 02:05									#182
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and i may be ignorant but at least i know of the Gullah islands and dont refer to them with a vague phrase like "little islands off carolina"

	11-06-2004 02:05									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer see now, i did that little moderator schpeel a minute ago to re-direct, re-invigorate the debate and prevent more insults but those are your responses, chegitz? telling me i'm ignorant and cursing at Lorizael?

You are ignorant on this issue. And I get hot under the collar when people say I'm wrong to be proud of where I came from.

	11-06-2004 02:08									#184
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Gullah's the dialect, not the name of the islands.

	11-06-2004 02:11									#185
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no... Geechee is the dialect.

and in any event, they were a cultural outlier with limited contact with the rest of the population of america.

	11-06-2004 02:16									#186
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The point remains that traces of African culture remained, despite the best efforts to stamp it out.

Both Gullah and Geechee are names for the same dialect, btw.

	11-06-2004 02:19									#187
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but traces remained on an isolated island. i dont see what that has to do with the systematic destruction of african culture during and after slavery.

	11-06-2004 02:21									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer but traces remained on an isolated island. i dont see what that has to do with the systematic destruction of african culture during and after slavery.

It was more than traces on the islands.

	11-06-2004 02:24									#189
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chegitz, i dont get what your point is. is this some sort of whitewashing of slavery? like, sure they had to work in the fields picking cotton with its sharp needles and get beat by overseers, but at least they had their african culture!

	11-06-2004 02:27									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer chegitz, i dont get what your point is. is this some sort of whitewashing of slavery? like, sure they had to work in the fields picking cotton with its sharp needles and get beat by overseers, but at least they had their african culture!

I don't know where you get that from. The point was whether or not modern Black Americans have any traces of African culture, enough to justice claiming a connection to Africa via the name African-American.

	11-06-2004 02:32									#191
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and you think a culture of people numbering less than a few hundred probably on some tiny, isolated islands is enough of a trace of culture in the whole of the black population to justify calling them of the african culture? gee, i guess the english are romans then

	11-06-2004 02:34									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and you think a culture of people numbering less than a few hundred probably on some tiny, isolated islands is enough of a trace of culture in the whole of the black population to justify calling them of the african culture?

Are you trying to be obtuse?

	11-06-2004 02:40									#193
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obtuse? I am unfamiliar with that term

i am just saying that it appears that you're denying the destruction of the African consciousness brought on by slavery.

i have never in my life seen a black american have any special affinity for an african out of a shared heritage of any sort. in fact, i've been more likely to see black americans seperate themselves from africans. africans are different, in the eyes of many.

	11-06-2004 02:47									#194
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It means "dense."

	11-06-2004 02:52									#195
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And I get hot under the collar when people say I'm wrong to be proud of where I came from.

And I don't particularly enjoy it when people call me a racist, but I haven't attempted to insult you.

Remember that whole respect thing you were yelling about? In the beginning I stated that I would call people as they wished to be called, that I would respect the choices they make, but it doesn't mean I agree with the choices they make.

How about you recognize the fact that we disagree on this issue and show me a little respect? I am not trying to destroy your identity because I believe labels are silly. I am not engaging in ethnic cleansing because I don't take culture or race into account. And I am not a racist because I disagree with you.

The world ain't so black and white as that, Che.

	11-06-2004 03:00									#196
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(again), no pun intended, I'm sure.

	11-06-2004 03:03									#197
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Of course not.

	11-06-2004 03:03									#198
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don't you hate it when a threads gets so long that we got commentary?

	11-06-2004 03:22									#199
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara What you feel Blacks / African Americans should think and feel is really irrelevent. What is important is what they feel. If someone asks you to refer to them as Black, do so. If someone asks you to refer to them as African-American, then do so. If they ask you to call the Fred, then do so.

Ok so we should only call people what they want to be called....what if we don't know what they want to be called? If asked to describe a person you don't know to someone else how will you do it? If I have to describe the way a person looks to another I'm going to include the colour of their skin - as well as the colour of their hair, eyes, height, build, sex etc....for example to describe myself, I'm a white female with reddish brown hair and blue eyes, above average height, and medium to slim build. To describe one of my friends I'd say black female, braided black hair, brown eyes, average height, and very slim build. How else am I supposed to describe her? Wonderfully sweet girl who loves to dance and likes Tupac? How the hell does that help anyone who is looking for her? For some people (one in particular who I can't remember I'm sorry) to say that they don't like being put in little boxes because of their ethnicity/sex/eyecolour/whatever is bullsh*t. These are physical characteristics and they are there to distinguish me from you. Ok some people think that certain characteristics make one person inferior to another - but i think we all agree here that that is not right. That doesnt stop us from using these characteristics to describe someones physical appearance.
One of my friends is from Eritrea, another from Nigeria. One speaks with an american accent, the other a british/nigerian accent. Neither are american, yet most people who are asked to describe them who don't know them call them african american. This offends them more than anything else. I suppose the proper pc term would be to call them african, but then what about people here in new zealand - they have dark skin, but they aren't african, they're maori, or samoan or whatever. Unless you know their ethnicity, you can't use it as a describing term - however the colour of their skin you can.

	11-06-2004 03:29									#200
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quote: When I start segregating myself, then you can worry about this.

Ah, and here comes the part of Speer's racism troll which rings true. Unless you know, you can't form any judgements about it (translated even futher, unless you are black you can't talk about the culture).

This is an interesting thread. Speer is totally schooling che.

	11-06-2004 03:46									#201
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Then why do historians claim Africa is more diverse than Asia??

Anthropologists claim that Africa is the most genetically diverse continent. Gene studies trace the ancestors of all Caucasians and Mongoloids to one group thought to have crossed the Red Sea 70,000 years ago. Homo sapiens existed in Africa two to three times longer, so the African gene pool has had a lot longer to diversify.

	11-06-2004 04:20									#202
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Strangelove:

historically, though, it would seem africa wouldn't be diverse as the Bantu spread from roughly the Congo into all directions. Most ethnic groups in africa trace back to the single Bantu ethnicity.

	11-06-2004 04:27									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Strangelove: historically, though, it would seem africa wouldn't be diverse as the Bantu spread from roughly the Congo into all directions. Most ethnic groups in africa trace back to the single Bantu ethnicity.

Genetic studies show that Sub-Saharan Africa is the most genetically diverse region in the world. The fact that the Bantus eventually migrated over most of the area does not change this. You have to consider that there are many pockets of peoples who were not assimilated, that people who were assimiliated wouldn't become genetically extinct, and that even if there was significant intermarriage, diverse gene pools would still exist.

	11-06-2004 04:36									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i am just saying that it appears that you're denying the destruction of the African consciousness brought on by slavery.

Have you ever listened to an immigrant speak English? They don't form sentences the same way native English speakers do. Have you ever noticed how Black people tend not to speak English properly? This is because when African slaves were learning how to speak English, they continued forming sentences as they would be formed in their old languages. This manner of speech has been passed down over the centuries. When scholars studied what is alternately known as Black English Vernacular or Eubonics, they discovered that that the way Black Americans created sentences was similar to some African languages.

This is one way in which African culture is still with Black Americans today. This doesn't mean that Black people in the United States speak Yoruba.

Can you understand the difference?

quote: i have never in my life seen a black american have any special affinity for an african out of a shared heritage of any sort.

I would argue you haven't been around much.

	11-06-2004 06:40									#205
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I think I get it now . . . . . . .


blacks should call themselves whatever white people think they should call themselves.

	11-06-2004 06:50									#206
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No, people - all people - should call themselves whatever they want to call themselves. However, it's innacurate and sometimes harmful to call yourself certain things. You can still do it, because you have a right to the sanctity of your identity, but I'll disagree with you. Not that my disagreeing has any power, and it shouldn't.

	11-06-2004 08:27									#207
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael However, it's innacurate and sometimes harmful to call yourself certain things.

To some degree you're right. Vague labels like Chinese, American, German or any other nationalistic tag are often inaccurate and harmful.

There is no such thing as a single culture in China. The Cantonese are different from Beijingers. They eat different food. They speak different languages (or dialects). Their cultures, such as opera, are different.

In the US, the New York Democrat has a very different culture from a Texan Republican. A person living in Bismarck, ND is going to have a very different lifestyle from the person living in San Francisco.

In German, Easterners and Westerners are different as are the mainly Protestant north and the mainly Catholic south.

So even though nationalistic names are vague, few people would ridicule the use of these terms, or complain that the terms are being used. Why is that?

	11-06-2004 08:44									#208
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I would.

	11-06-2004 08:47									#209
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Conclusion:

1. You call people what they want to be called. Duh.

2. However, in America, you cannot go wrong with "African American" in any mature social situation, until otherwise requested/allowed/whatever. This is trebly true upon any initial meeting. And even if "allowed", you should probably take the high road.

Gotta tell you, this stuff (etiquette in regards to race/religion/national origin/etc.) really gets pounded into you in a corporate environment, especially amongst the white collar types. You even take classes for this in an average business degree, and if you're ever in a position to interview, the number of topics that you can't talk about are almost as great as the number you can.

	11-06-2004 08:48									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer don't you hate it when a threads gets so long that we got commentary?

It's really about the only way I participate in these things.