17-06-2004 02:30									#61
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I was wondering the other day why France's agrisubsidy lobby is so strong. In the US, it's because underpopulated states in the midwest that rely upon farming are vastly over-represented. Is there a similar thing going on in France?

	17-06-2004 02:33									#62
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The French have gastronomic snobbery.

	17-06-2004 02:50									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Including the free trade area, that seems a little low to me. If we can keep free trade" And why the hell would we lose it.

We don't have the right to pick and choose. We can't say "actually, we'd like out of the political union, but keep the free trade agreement". The EU could turn round and say no, we're in or out. There is no provision for removal from the EU but keeping the free trade agreement. In short, the UKIP cannot go through with their pledge, wherever they're elected, without the consent of the EU itself.

I think one MEP actually said we'd have to pull out first, before we could even have talks of rejoining the free trade area. That's at least a few years without it.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "we might lose a couple of billion a year though EU investment going to other nations" Why do they invest here as a result of our membership of the EU (free trade aside, as that will remain under the UKIP's policy)?

Because we look like we'll join the euro at some point, because they'd be in a country that's government has a say on the EU regulations they have to follow (and so they have leverage). Probably other reasons too. Nevertheless, someone mentioned before how much inward investment as a % of EU has fallen to the UK, through being out of the Euro. if we took that policy away completely, it would likely fall further.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "but we'd gain much of the £10 billion we spend." All of it. And we can distribute it a whole lot better than EUrocrats can.

No we wouldn't. We get at least £5 billion back, in the form of subsidies, that the government would have hell to pay to try to cancel, if we pulled out. I agree we'd gain, but we don't waste £10 billion on the EU every year.

	17-06-2004 03:18									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue We don't have the right to pick and choose. We can't say "actually, we'd like out of the political union, but keep the free trade agreement". The EU could turn round and say no, we're in or out. There is no provision for removal from the EU but keeping the free trade agreement. In short, the UKIP cannot go through with their pledge, wherever they're elected, without the consent of the EU itself. I think one MEP actually said we'd have to pull out first, before we could even have talks of rejoining the free trade area. That's at least a few years without it.

In the unlikely event that the UK withdraws from the EU I don't think they'd pull out until they have the free trade agreement renegotiated. I would hope that neither side would cut their nose to spite their face on that issue, as the UK expelled from the free trade area would also be bad for the EU.

	17-06-2004 03:39									#65
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I would agree. But at the current time, the UKIP position is not on offer. We cannot presume we can just leave and keep the free trade. They aren't two seperate agreements. If we want to keep one and not the other, it needs renegotiating.

	17-06-2004 09:37									#66
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I still don't understand what individual member states have to gain, even theoretically, from being part of the EU aside from the free trade area.

With no unified foreign policy, no unified defense, no unified national agenda and no unified immigration/citizenship procedures, what has been gained? Seems pretty much the same as the EEC to me, only with more money wasted and more powers ceded.

	17-06-2004 09:40									#67
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The French Union is teh gay

UK

	17-06-2004 09:40									#68
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The EU is way beyond free trade area (except 3 countries uk, denmark and sweden). there's been harmonization of trading laws, competition laws, u name it.
the gains are many to those well equipped to compete.
same laws make it easier for companies to expand hugely their clientel and base of operations etc etc

this is the unified market area way beyond a free trade area.
apart from that anotehr EU aim is to be able to shed off influences. to do that you need unification.

divided we fall. united we stand

	17-06-2004 09:43									#69
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in order to have unification we need to secure 4 things

freedom of passage of:
persons
capital
establisment (staying in whichever country of the EU)
goods


to do that we need to unify certain laws and harmonize them

this has already been done

	17-06-2004 09:59									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I was wondering the other day why France's agrisubsidy lobby is so strong. In the US, it's because underpopulated states in the midwest that rely upon farming are vastly over-represented. Is there a similar thing going on in France?

Not only france.

2 reasons for the common agricultural policy and subsidies in general:

_Farmers have historically held a disporpotionate to their population influence on european politics. (at least continental europe AFAIK)

_There was an EEC directive to be able to feed the continent on its own. This has suceeded. The problem is that it has suceeded too much. We are overflooded with food now and it is because of our too much success in implementing that policy. and not changing it in time, for various reasons.

but since cap is almost 50% of EU budget some think this ought to chance. we'll see what will be done.

	17-06-2004 10:27									#71
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 in order to have unification we need to secure 4 things freedom of passage of: persons capital establisment (staying in whichever country of the EU) goods to do that we need to unify certain laws and harmonize them this has already been done

But in order to function as a unified state (federal or confederal), you need a unified foreign and immigration policy, which we will probably never see in our lifetime, or at least in all of the EU... which makes a single tier EU sort of pointless and stagnating as Spiffor said.

And all the laws that you've harmonized are the equivalent of a free trade agreement. I still don't get what each country has to gain by giving up billions to the central EU government.

	17-06-2004 10:31									#72
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well single curerncy goes beyong just free trade for one...


federation is one of the two thoughts. money going to central eu is for structural funds but most importantly for impementing the CAP and other policies which are now part of the single market area.


also i think spiffor uses the stagnation as an argument to go forward with foreing policy unification.

that's a tricky subject. theere were many theories and many new ones for the future on how to do that.
there are countries in favor against or neutral.

	17-06-2004 10:35									#73
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BTW doe s a free trade agreement gives free move to persons, the right to establishment etc?

I dont think so, but correct me if you think im wrong.

	17-06-2004 11:35									#74
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you're wrong

	17-06-2004 12:15									#75
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And Ted should know: in NAFTA, the Mexicans are sooooo free of movement

	17-06-2004 12:19									#76
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Under UK law (note not French or German those wonderful europeans) anyone in the EU can live in the UK there are restrictions on benefits but anyone can come here. so in the UK free trade includes freedom of movement which despite me being a eurosceptic is entirley correct.

I also don't have a problem with eu laws on competition and other trade related matters.

	17-06-2004 12:21									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And Ted should know: in NAFTA, the Mexicans are sooooo free of movement

About the same as Muslim schoolchildren in France.

	17-06-2004 12:21									#78
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_Under UK law (note not French or German those wonderful europeans) anyone in the EU can live in the UK



That's because you are part of the EU. (sort of)

	17-06-2004 12:26									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker About the same as Muslim schoolchildren in France.

Irrelevant post of the week!

And thanks for avoiding the point

	17-06-2004 12:47									#80
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The misery around the constitution, the persistence of the CAP and the recent french adventures about national champions have greatly diminished my support for the EU. In fact, they have killed it. Dissolve the EU. May be it's time to look for other options.

	18-06-2004 00:14									#81
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I agree. French interventionism in the Commission is starting to get worrisome. However I don't know wether this is a french only phainomenon.
For example I know we were given a lot of liniency for the Olympic Airways restructuring (with state funds ).

And I don't know what's the status of Volkswagen's protective laws against foreign buyouts.

	18-06-2004 17:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Cost to UK of leaving EU - estimated £23 billion." Link?

As requested;-

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/po...sp?story=531995

Now, if UKIP get elected, are they going to foot the bill?

	18-06-2004 18:12									#83
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I can't believe how much nonsense is in that article. Mainly they still don't show where the figure comes from.

"Economic growth would be lower by 2.5 per cent"

What? Why?

"Withdrawal could trigger a loss of confidence in UK economic prospects, possibly causing a run on the pound, leading to a rise in inflation through higher import costs, unemployment and interest rates."

Very unlikely.

"More volatile interest rates would add to the risks of boom and bust in the housing markets."

Well yes, perhaps they would, but this is completely irrelevant to the issue of leaving the EU.

The rest is barely credible. I'm surprised, I did expect something interesting but it is a collection of unsupported lies and fiction.

	18-06-2004 18:16									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue I'm surprised, I did expect something interesting but it is a collection of unsupported lies and fiction.

I'm surprised. On that basis it sounds just your cup of tea.

Seriously though - you can't really think leaving the EU won't cost us?

It's common sense. You get nowt for nowt.

	18-06-2004 18:18									#85
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"Seriously though - you can't really think leaving the EU won't cost us?"

Why not? We keep the free trade aspect of it, what it was designed for. We just opt out of all their directives which are just foistered on to us by Germany and France in order to make our economy as inflexible and inefficient as theirs.

Plus we get back the billions we contribute in net.

What exactly will it cost us, anyway?

	18-06-2004 18:26									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Seriously though - you can't really think leaving the EU won't cost us?" Why not? We keep the free trade aspect of it, what it was designed for.

As pointed out in this thread - we cannot keep the free trade without the consent of the EU.

Trade is a 2 way street.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue We just opt out of all their directives which are just foistered on to us by Germany and France in order to make our economy as inflexible and inefficient as theirs.

We already have the veto on defence, tax and social welfare. How can you have a free trade area if all the member states have different trade rules? It makes no sense.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Plus we get back the billions we contribute in net.

We stop contributing to the EU and expect them NOT to retaliate?

C'mon, if Brussels really IS a set of evil ogres, we must EXPECT them to retaliate.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue What exactly will it cost us, anyway?

Up to 55% of our trade. That's a lot of bread.

Of course, we'll only know EXACTLY how much by doing it.

It's a bit like Chernobyl - "At what point will this cooling system fail and induce a meltdown?"

There are some experiments that are too stupid to be performed.

	18-06-2004 18:40									#87
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quote: As pointed out in this thread - we cannot keep the free trade without the consent of the EU. Trade is a 2 way street.

What would prevent us having a free trade agreement with the EU, like other non-EU European states do?

quote: We already have the veto on defence, tax and social welfare. How can you have a free trade area if all the member states have different trade rules? It makes no sense.

Have you heard of the WTO?

quote: We stop contributing to the EU and expect them NOT to retaliate?

Good alliance that. We have to keep paying them billions in order to avoid negative consequences.

And what exactly would they do to retaliate?

quote: Up to 55% of our trade. That's a lot of bread.

We aren't leaving the free trade area. Are you aware of any other European countries that trade freely with the EU without being part of it?

quote: There are some experiments that are too stupid to be performed.

So let's not do any "experiments" at all The EU was an experiment, and that has failed.

	18-06-2004 18:42									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue And what exactly would they do to retaliate?

This is the whole point Bods...

... if a country doesn't want to trade, it doesn't have to.

If the EU doesn't want to trade with the UK because the UK has left the EU - it doesn't have to.

NOW do you get it?

	18-06-2004 18:43									#89
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And that's really likely to happen isn't it.

In fact, we'd probably enjoy a better relationship with European countries once we left the EU. They would be free to force through whatever inflexible regulations they want without us blocking them. That is how we would phrase it - that the UK is obviously not compatible with some of the policies the EU has, and that it would be better to be simple free trade partners.

And it's not just us that benefit from trade. We import more from the EU than we export, and hence they would have more reason to continue trading.

	18-06-2004 19:00									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue ... And it's not just us that benefit from trade. We import more from the EU than we export, and hence they would have more reason to continue trading.

Hmm... you mean, we would starve before they did?

Sorry, not going to risk that possibility.