15-06-2004 22:25									#31
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If the Finnish government would cut government spending, cut taxes, and make it easier for people to start businesses then you'd find employment and economic growth would greatly improve. Right now I'm not sure very many people would want to start a business in that regulatory and tax enviroment. It's a shame because Finns proved how good they can do with the start up of Nokia. I just don't see such successes coming in the future.

	15-06-2004 22:30									#32
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Well, if UKIP have their way, it will dissolve into a simple web of protectionism. Despite the CAP taking up 50% of the EU budget, they favour keeping and probably expanding farm subsidies, because it's part of our 'heritage'. The British public and developing world farmers get ripped off, whilst a handful of landowners reap the rewards.

The heritage argument is total crap. Why not subsidise shipbuilding and steel as well? They're just as much a part of our 'heritage'. And you could argue that free trade is also part of our culture. It's a complete non-starter.

	15-06-2004 22:32									#33
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Down with rich countries' subsidies for farmers!

	15-06-2004 22:56									#34
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quote: Well, if UKIP have their way, it will dissolve into a simple web of protectionism.

That is a bullshit lie.

	15-06-2004 22:57									#35
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alva, I can say that honestly. Has it slowered the advancement? Maybe not that either.

Oerdin, Many people wonder what you wonder too man.. it's not exactly appealing to start businesses and be enterprauner.. when they take half away *Sssccinhg* just like that. It doesnt' appeal to young folks especially. They've done some research in business schools and other academics too, and it seems like no one wants to do that anymore. Then they're surprised to these results. The message is so clear. Taxes are TOO high to start your own business. Still nothing happens and they think of some excuses like 'well they just don't want to start businesses because they don't have the commitment'. Maybe so, but still the reason #1 is taxes and they refuse to admit it. Everyone knows it though.

	15-06-2004 23:04									#36
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Also what is very bad in starting a business here is that the cost of employing someone is horrible. So basically you're stuck with yourself, and you better not get sick in the next 20 years and miss a day or you'll be screwed. This I think is the same in most countries but... don't take half from small businesses, that's just too much, they can't bloom..

We had a long and big business course we had to do and we virtually ran our own company for the whole year doing lots of things, and the taste we were left was 'don't ever start your own business' . Why? Because well.. uh hey I don't have to reason why I don't want to be shot in the back so I shouldn't have to reason with this either.

What they have done now, every party has been saying it the longest 'we will help small businesses especially' but no one really does anything. It's just the party powerplays.. fighting each other, not the issues.. yes, it's very easy to register your business these days, that's something that's done, but nothing to taxes and THE REAL ISSUES.

	15-06-2004 23:19									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue That is a bullshit lie.

Sure, like they won't extend the 'special case' of agriculture to other areas.

	16-06-2004 17:07									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I doubt there will be any change any time soon though because the way the EU is structured Franch citizens essentially have votes that are worth more then German or British citizens. Each of the big countries get equal numbers of votes but the French have fewer citizens.

France has the same population as the UK, or maybe a half million more. So your statement isn't really true.

	16-06-2004 17:28									#39
	Re: Is the EU going to dissolve to a simple free trade area? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue After the latest bout of elections, what does everyone think? The press are acting like the turnout was high in the UK..yet it was still less than half. Lower in most other countries too..

Turnout was higher in those areas with postal voting.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Without the EU it's not like we're going to return to war.

Hmm... you don't remember the Icelandic cod war, do you.

quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue And we can keep the essential part of it, the free trade. Everything else is just a waste of money and bureaucracy.

I see no reason why we can expect to keep the free trade while rejecting the rest.
Look around you at how many projects get money back from the EU - and did you check the papers this morning?

Cost to UK of leaving EU - estimated £23 billion.

No thanks.

	16-06-2004 17:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin France has the same population as the UK, or maybe a half million more. So your statement isn't really true.

Ok, sorry. Now compare either countries' population to Germany and ask yourself why Germany gets the same number of votes yet has a larger population.

	16-06-2004 17:52									#41
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Actually, those who are really favored by the system as it is are the medium countries (Spain and Poland, who have as many votes as the big ones), or the tiny countries that are vastly overrepresented.

The idea of a "French-German diktat" on the EU is false. The French and Germans exert their influence with more success than the others, because the others can't be arsed to make a solid block. Fundamentally, UK+Italy could have exactly as much weight on the Union as France+Germany, if they could make the effort to agree.

	16-06-2004 17:58									#42
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EU is built on the strong fundation of German humility and submissiveness.

The German state I mean. They have compromised the most and given up most for the Union, in my opinion.

	16-06-2004 17:59									#43
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The EU is going on on a short of a crisis. Wether this recent disagreemnt will make it emerge stronger (happened before the exact same scenario during events in middle east) or will the crisis continue we'll see.
If there is no agreement on the constitution things will go downhill. It won't be dissolved into anything than what it is but the procees will be almost halted.
The bad thing I notice is that most and most countries react now on a national level. The spirit of compromise that existed earlier is lacking now.

	16-06-2004 17:59									#44
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Yes and that's the whole point of it. And France + Germany knows it . Thus the conspiracy remains!

It's like saying "well I have this great set of different foods in the table I made, but unless you say you want it, you can't have it" to a MUTE!

	16-06-2004 18:02									#45
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WHAT!?!? Paiktis weren't you banned for a WEEK??


****ing Greeks always have a special treatment on this site!

	16-06-2004 18:06									#46
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It has been a week. (minus a day). I pleaded Ming to let me out earlier so I could post on the euro2004 predictions thread before the match with Greece as I did before and we won. In his magnanimity he agreed and I am on probation.

	16-06-2004 18:08									#47
	Put an end to popups!

Btw why I aren't you flying the flag and other insignia like a real football supporter should right now?

	16-06-2004 18:09									#48
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I want to keep a low profile. Not tempt the fates

	16-06-2004 18:09									#49
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paiktis, oh by the way congrats for the win.. today again eh?

	16-06-2004 18:11									#50
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We'll see...

	16-06-2004 18:41									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Its probably the most idiotic of all schemes I've ever seen. Taxpayers pay farmers to produce food that we could import from people at a fraction of the cost. Those people are starving because of the political clout that a few thousand people, who would cope if their industry collapsed, as opposed to entire communities and peoples that have no money, no social security safety net and no jobs to fall back on if theirs falls through. The injustice the CAP perpetuates is frankly offensive.

I don't think I've ever given you an before, but you've managed to make me smile and realise why I do economics, less than 3 hours after I finished the most important exam of my life, that just happened to be on international and developmental economics.

It's one of the few pieces of legislation that deserves the Archer treatment (after the spoof drama, The Truth). "No, we should not vote this legislation down. We should salt it, set light to it and let is burn" (said as he takes out a lighter and does just that). Complete fiction, but I'd sell my soul to be able to do that to the CAP

	16-06-2004 18:42									#52
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Hear hear!

	16-06-2004 18:42									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor So far, the question is mainly whether there will be a two-tier EU, with some countries integrating politically while others do not, or a one tier EU, in which every country follows the same evolution, which will be slower or even stagnating.

The former would be fantastic, but I can't see France or Germany going for it. Unless the UK dropped out and put pressure on the rest of the EU to let it keep the free trade. That could spurn others to, and let the core nations do their political integration.

	16-06-2004 18:44									#54
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hear hear!

TO AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARMMMMMMMSSSSS!

	16-06-2004 18:45									#55
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Uuh Uuh can I make our war flag pleaaassee??
Also I want to be in charge of the victory parade plus I want to be in charge of at least one major offensive.

	16-06-2004 19:47									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue The former would be fantastic, but I can't see France or Germany going for it.

"Core Europe" was a project of prime Minister Balladur and chancellor Kohl in the 90s. And today, some accuse Chirac of having deliberately allowed Poland and Spain to ruin the constitution discussions, to further the cause of a two-tier Europe.

There will definitely be a debate about it, even in Britain (because many Brits will understand there are more benfits to be in a political area than in a mere free trade zone). But I don't think there will be a kind of unbearable opposition from France and Germany.

	16-06-2004 23:41									#57
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"Cost to UK of leaving EU - estimated £23 billion."



Link?

	17-06-2004 00:22									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue "Cost to UK of leaving EU - estimated £23 billion." Link?

Including the free trade area, that seems a little low to me. If we can keep free trade, we might lose a couple of billion a year though EU investment going to other nations, but we'd gain much of the £10 billion we spend.

	17-06-2004 01:50									#59
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"Including the free trade area, that seems a little low to me. If we can keep free trade"

And why the hell would we lose it.

"we might lose a couple of billion a year though EU investment going to other nations"

Why do they invest here as a result of our membership of the EU (free trade aside, as that will remain under the UKIP's policy)?

"but we'd gain much of the £10 billion we spend."

All of it. And we can distribute it a whole lot better than EUrocrats can.

	17-06-2004 02:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ok, sorry. Now compare either countries' population to Germany and ask yourself why Germany gets the same number of votes yet has a larger population.

Compare it to the small countries.

Votes per million population:
Germany 0.35
UK 0.49
France 0.49
Netherlands 0.82
Greece 1.13
Ireland 1.88
Estonia 2.77
Malta 8.33

As you can see, votes per person increases in favour of smaller countries. It is done so to negate the power that larger countries inherently would have.