22-07-2004 09:14									#211
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I think the idea has merit. They'd be like reusable rover chassises (chasses?) for the formers. When a former is plopped down and starts to build that 16-turn borehole, the transport can take another former and take it to its own designated square, instead of those three mineral rows worth of mobility sitting there doing nothing.

You get the mobility without as big a production tradeoff as with fitting rover chassises to all of your formers. And the same transports could be used to rapidly deploy crawlers as well, not to mention military units.

Last edited by Kassiopeia on 22-07-2004 at 09:26

	22-07-2004 20:32									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac SC2 CP moving west, to (51.17) I assume.

If it uses its all its movement point to enter 55:17, then I suggest that we found base #4 (what are we going to name this one?) the turn after on 53:17.

But if when it enter the river at 55:17 it still has 2/3rds left, and moves that same turn to 53:17, then I agree next turn move it on 2/3rds to 51:17 and found there

quote: I had an idea to explore the NW Crater faster. Instead of first popping the crater unity pods after base nr. 4 was founded, and only then moving NW (which would require Rolling Thunder to wait a turn doing nothing), I let Rolling Thunder drive down Río Grande towards the NW Crater. It should have explored the NW and be ready for pod popping the minute base #4 is founded.

How do we feel about the following:

• move CP to 55:17 next turn (2116)
  
• same turn, move Rolling Thunder to 53:13 then 53:15
  
• in 2117, pop the pod on the river tile at 54:18 with the Colony Pod
  
• if a mindworm or spore launcher, attack with rover, if possible, otherwise move rover to 54:18 to protect CP

	22-07-2004 20:54									#214
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is there a limit on naming landmarks?

	22-07-2004 21:11									#215
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64, including those assigned by the game (eg Borehole Cluster, Ruins, etc)

	22-07-2004 23:55									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie If it uses its all its movement point to enter 55:17, then I suggest that we found base #4 (what are we going to name this one?) the turn after on 53:17.

This has the advantage another pod would be included in the base radius. But on the other side, founding a base in the middle of the crater would mean we couldn't find any other base anymore on one of the 9 crater tiles. This means our next base in the neighbourhood would probably produce one less mineral and energy (due to not being on a crater river tile). Would getting an extra mineral and energy not be worth a mere one turn with waiting to found the base?

quote: How do we feel about the following: move CP to 55:17 next turn (2116) same turn, move Rolling Thunder to 53:13 then 53:15 in 2117, pop the pod on the river tile at 54:18 with the Colony Pod if a mindworm or spore launcher, attack with rover, if possible, otherwise move rover to 54:18 to protect CP This sequence can't hurt us (unless we get transported somewhere else on our continent), and we may get that rare CP dimensional rift cloning

So do you mean pop the pod before establishing a base? Do we not then run the risk of bad pod poppings like another fungal bloom or an eartquake? I figured we wanted to avoid those, and thus as much as possible pop pods when they're in a base radius.

	23-07-2004 00:49									#217
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We are building the scout rover in Santiago Citidel for drone control and exploring to the NE, right? That's a good idea. We need to start making that CC useful.

Base #4 will be making 5 nuts, 3 min, and 3 energy right from the start. I'd say that's pretty good for a base in the very early game. It will be our best base so far, until the others grow to size 2 again.

	23-07-2004 01:06									#218
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WOW! turns mooving fast today. witch is nice. noita on mukava.

since I can't give up, I have something to add to the former issue. what about upkeep costs? what about fast road construction to new/conquered areas?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie If Drogue and/or method don't respond to our proddings re fair allocation, then I say we should abrogate as many as we can to ourselves - fill the map with "holder' placetags that we can use at a subsequent time (or sell for ec's to the other factions)

I agree.

	23-07-2004 06:21									#219
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Hey, I'm authorized again!! (dunno what happened, but I didn't need to slip into Rynn's character to visit)

quote: Originally posted by Maniac But on the other side, founding a base in the middle of the crater would mean we couldn't find any other base anymore on one of the 9 crater tiles.

Right - I'd forgotten that. cf your post on July 14, with the 3-base crater and 4-base crater options. I'd go with the 4-base variant (as someone said elsewhere, PBEMs rarely last long enough for tight base spacing to become a population-limiting problem)

quote: So do you mean pop the pod before establishing a base? Do we not then run the risk of bad pod poppings like another fungal bloom or an eartquake? I figured we wanted to avoid those, and thus as much as possible pop pods when they're in a base radius.

Well - we've had 2 bad pops in succession (fungal blooms), so I reckon we're due a humungous one (like a cloned CP or a tech, or an AA)

But you're right, there is a downside too, and a cloned rover wouldn't be all that bad either (and if we found a base then there's always the chance that we'll get a unit completion goodie too, such as a rover former - or a Network Node - if we found it in 2118 at 51:17 as Crater West and then pop the pods after we discover Infotechs in 2118

So I agree - ignore my previous stream-of-consciousness ramblings

G.

	23-07-2004 13:20									#220
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What do you want to do with Rolling Thunder in that case? Move it two west to map the black tiles?

I hope I'll have the opportunity to play the turn in a few hours.

	23-07-2004 14:25									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie If Drogue and/or method don't respond to our proddings re fair allocation, then I say we should abrogate as many as we can to ourselves - fill the map with "holder' placetags that we can use at a subsequent time (or sell for ec's to the other factions)

Proddings? I haven't seen any yet As a general thing, if you want to find things out, PM me.

I thought I'd ruled on this, but perhaps only when asked by others. You can name whatever you want until they run out, but when they run out, every faction will get an equal amount [(total number-set ones)/4]. I'd suggest just naming the amount that is your share (~15-20?).

	23-07-2004 17:17									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Proddings? I haven't seen any yet As a general thing, if you want to find things out, PM me.

I did - and backed it up with an e-mail as well (both on the 20th) e-mail was sent to your akizeta persona - is that still valid?

G.

	23-07-2004 17:54									#224
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No, that one got so overloaded with spam, mailwasher couldn't cope. Everything 'Poly and DG related has been switched to drogue AT gmail DOT com. I thought I'd posted this, but I may have forgotten, or just put it in private forums Will make a post about it on the main forum.

	23-07-2004 17:58									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac SC2 CP to (55.17).

So we found Fort Westcrater next turn on 55:17? (to retain the ability to build 4 crater bases) Set production to a rover scout (see below)

quote: Rolling Thunder moves W & SW. Not two west as the new revealed tile contains fungus

Next turn move SW to 50:14 (opens up that last black tile) then south on to the river/nut tile, ready turn after to move downriver and pop the pod in the fungus in the new base radius at 54:18 (having changed Westcrater's production to a rover former just before - if not a completion, we can change back without the minerals penalty)

Do the same thing at Sparta Command (change to a rover former) and pop that pod with Chiron Knights and flip back to a regiular former if unsuccessful

(btw - why no Colony pod at SC1. We pop 2 there in 6 and a pod would complete in 7 turns (with the extra pop working) versus a former first then a pod (prolly 12 turns in total, once the second pop worker is factored in) Sure we can rush, but it's almost better wasting that 1 mineral next turn to change (assuming no good podpop) than spending the hard earned ec's to rush more than a couple of turnsworth)

	23-07-2004 20:55									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie So we found Fort Westcrater next turn on 55:17? (to retain the ability to build 4 crater bases) Set production to a rover scout (see below)

No sorry, I just meant that it had moved to that tile. AFAIK Zeiter and also me would still prefer to found a base on (51.17). That way we can build more bases in the crater while still having the nutrient resource in the base radius.

Btw, do you mean set production to a rover scout or a rover former (for pod popping)?

If you mean a scout rover, do we still need any rovers for exploration? After all, we've got two rovers going south, and a third soon exploring the remaining NE corner (most likely) of our peninsula. So if we want to continue exploring and pod popping, the ocean seems the way to go.

Of course we still need military units for garrison duty.

But for our first Crater base, if we don't get a materials pod, how about we build an infantry former? That could plant a forest on the nut bonus for a great 3-2-2 tile, and start building roads and farms in the crater.

quote: Next turn move SW to 50:14 (opens up that last black tile) then south on to the river/nut tile, ready turn after to move downriver and pop the pod in the fungus in the new base radius at 54:18 (having changed Westcrater's production to a rover former just before - if not a completion, we can change back without the minerals penalty) Do the same thing at Sparta Command (change to a rover former) and pop that pod with Chiron Knights and flip back to a regiular former if unsuccessful

quote: (btw - why no Colony pod at SC1. We pop 2 there in 6 and a pod would complete in 7 turns (with the extra pop working) versus a former first then a pod (prolly 12 turns in total, once the second pop worker is factored in) Sure we can rush, but it's almost better wasting that 1 mineral next turn to change (assuming no good podpop) than spending the hard earned ec's to rush more than a couple of turnsworth)

CP or former are both fine with me.

	23-07-2004 21:16									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Andemagne since I can't give up, I have something to add to the former issue. what about upkeep costs? what about fast road construction to new/conquered areas?

I've done some tests - just comparing how fast one speeder former or two infantry formers could complete a certain task. The only task speeder formers can do as fast as two infantry formers is building roads on completely flat terrain. For all other tasks infantry formers soon take the lead. This means the extra mineral upkeep would soon be paid back. Also there's the issue that while in a scenario A a base would still be eleven turns away from building a rover former (presuming a mineral production of 3 as in our current bases), in scenario B the base would already have completed an infantry former sooner. That former could plant eg two forests already while the rover former is already under production. That turn advantage alone already pays back the extra upkeep costs of the second former when it becomes operational.

But anyway, currently we're using the tactic suggested to temporarily change production to speeder formers when we have a shot at a materials pod, so with some luck, we should get a speeder former in the near future that can build roads all over the place as you suggest. Then other infantry formers we possibly will build in the future could handle all the other terraformation works.

	24-07-2004 09:37									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac No sorry, I just meant that it had moved to that tile. AFAIK Zeiter and also me would still prefer to found a base on (51.17). That way we can build more bases in the crater while still having the nutrient resource in the base radius.

Yes, I know (the right hand picture you posted on 14th of the 4 bases in the crater) - I came round to that layout as well. But I'm suggesting the first crater base where it is right now (57:17), with a subsequent base at 51:17

The question I was raising was would we build the next base where it is now (I erroneously named it Westcrater - it'd actually be Eastcrater where it is. Westcrater would be on 57:17, to use that nut tile). I'd wager that one of the 2 pods that would be in the new base radius, if founded where it is right now, would be a nut special, so we'd gain turn advantage by building now(2117) and popping, rather than moving thru 3 river tiles then founding in 2118

quote: Btw, do you mean set production to a rover scout or a rover former (for pod popping)?

I meant rover former. To avoid misunderstanding, I''ll refer to them as speeder formers from now on - that's what the workshop labels them when you put it together

quote: If you mean a scout rover, do we still need any rovers for exploration? After all, we've got two rovers going south, and a third soon exploring the remaining NE corner (most likely) of our peninsula. So if we want to continue exploring and pod popping, the ocean seems the way to go.

I agree. Foils (that will, hopefully, pop trannies from time to time) are our future.

quote: Of course we still need military units for garrison duty.

Agreed. Trance synth or plasma defenders would be cool!! (but we're a good few techs away from them. Some 1-1-1's might be as good as we get for fifteen or twenty turns)

quote: But for our first Crater base, if we don't get a materials pod, how about we build an infantry former? That could plant a forest on the nut bonus for a great 3-2-2 tile, and start building roads and farms in the crater.

I'd go along with that.

	24-07-2004 12:06									#229
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I wonder, would it be better to plant a forest on the nut for a 3-2-2 tile, or a farm for a 4-1-1? I personally would be tempted to go for the second option for the pure growth potential, but that's just me (lately I've been a total demo/planned junkie.:lol

But the forest has 2 advantages:

1. extra mins and energy
2. could spread to other areas

So, I guess I'd go with the forest after all.

As far as planting the CP right where it is now and hoping for a nut bonus: I'm open to the idea. Could anyone calculate the probability of getting at least 1 nut bonus from those 3 pods? If the pods are in the base radius, then that rules out any negative pops. So it could be:

A monolith
A unity rover
A unity scout chopper
A completion pod
A mineral resource
An energy resource
Energy credits
commlink
tech
river
forest pod
robot agricultural pod
robot solar collector pod
robot mine pod
survey pod
AA
nutrient bonus

I don't know...there are a lot of possibilities. I calculate a 3/17 chance of one of the pods having a nut bonus. I don't know if those are good odds. I would play it safe and plant the CP in the crater west location.

	24-07-2004 17:33									#230
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Prima's Guide says:"

"In normal, non-fungus, non-sea aquares, the "discover resources" event is as likely as all other events combined (ie, about 50% of pods will be resources), but a "discover resource" pod has a 50% chance of porducing one of the other results as well" (ie - a "double goody" such as a nut bonus plus a Unity Rover - - or maybe a mineral bonus plus a mindworm - )

Last edited by Googlie on 24-07-2004 at 18:31

	24-07-2004 19:05									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I wonder, would it be better to plant a forest on the nut for a 3-2-2 tile, or a farm for a 4-1-1? I personally would be tempted to go for the second option for the pure growth potential, but that's just me (lately I've been a total demo/planned junkie.:lol

We could always plant a forest now, and around when we plan to start popbooming, cultivate a farm over it. Then that extra nutrient could translate in an extra 1-2-1 forest worker.

***

I already played part of the turn. Here's a midturn report:

Midturn results:

• R-112 CRV moved one tile SW. Fungal Tower discovered! Attack it or not? It's 3.75 against 2.62. Our odds per hitpoint-battle are 10 to 7. Victory seems likely, so we could get some credits. On the other side, leaving the fungal tower stand, would create a fungal barrier completely from the west to the east coast (after the tower caused a fungal bloom east of its location). That could be a good or a bad thing though, depending on whether we want to attack Yang, or have the best possible defence position against him (look at his powergraph ).
  
• The Chiron Knights. I changed production in SC1 to a speeder former, but to no avail. The first pod was once again a nutrient resource far far from our territory. Then I saw a second pod immediately west of the previous pod location. Because there was no other fungus-free tile to move to, I decided to pop it for a change, despite that it was the rover's last move. And bad luck, this time I popped a mind worm. Fortunately it's a rover, so it should be able to flee when attacked. ) It's about time we get some good pods again.
  
• Energy allocations changed to 50-0-50 for this turn, to prevent loss of a labs point when tech is researched.
  
• Things not yet done: move the CP and Rolling Thunder. Also, should I change SC1 production?

2117 midturn

Please see the attached screenshot for the worms.

Btw, re the idea for planting the base on (55.17).
Good idea, but just like Zeiter I fear the chance for a nutrient bonus could be too low.

For the pod on the north of the Crater, even if we would pop a nutrient, it would still produce one energy less than the nutrient bonus on the NW-side of the crater. So the turn advantage of founding the base one turn earlier would be reduced partially or even completely.

For the pod within the crater. That pod is on fungus, and I can't immediately remember ever getting a nutrient bonus on a fungus tile. This seems confirmed by what the Prima Guide writes:
"In normal, non-fungus, non-sea aquares"
So we are pretty certain NOT to get a nutrient bonus there.

Attachment: worms2117.jpg
This has been downloaded 41 time(s).

	24-07-2004 19:24									#232
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My vote, for what it's worth, is to kill that strange blobby thing. I'm not sure what they do exactly (never having played Alien Crossfire) but if it's going to obstruct our attack route towards Yang then I don't like it ... And anyway we could use the money.

	24-07-2004 22:35									#233
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Yeah, I'd go ahead and attack the fungal tower.

As for the other rover being able to disengage: I don't even think it'll have to do that. Doesn't native life attack at 30% strength for the first 30 turns or something? So our rover should win anyway, and could possibly get a morale boost.

So, next turn we found the Crater West base? Goody!

	25-07-2004 06:03									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen My vote, for what it's worth, is to kill that strange blobby thing.

Here's how they look when fullgrown.

quote: I'm not sure what they do exactly (never having played Alien Crossfire)

They're units without any movement points, meaning they always stay on the same place. They get a +50% battle bonus, in addition to their lifecycle bonus. This means they're difficult to kill even for the most hardened empath troops. We've had some luck here to encounter them in such an early stage, and of course because we have a veteran rover.

Besides standing in everyone's way, they also from time to time cause fungal blooms in the eight squares surrounding the tower. This is rather nasty if you're trying to terraform the area around a tower. Their lifecycle (native morale) is determined by the # of surrounding fungus squares by the way: the more fungal squares, the higher the lifecycle bonus.

Besides being randomly seeded at the start of the game, new ones can also appear when due to ecological damage you're causing lots of fungal blooms. Rather annoying when you suddenly get one in the middle of your territory.

The manual for SMAX claims they spawn native units from time to time, but unfortunately that feature doesn't seem to work. It could be fun in a game to face mind worm attacks coming from fungal towers once in a while.

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter As for the other rover being able to disengage: I don't even think it'll have to do that. Doesn't native life attack at 30% strength for the first 30 turns or something?

Alas, IIRC that's only the first fifteen turns.

***

Btw, I've played a bit further:

[*]R-112 CRV attacked the Fungal Tower and won, completely unharmed! We got 20 credits worth of planet pearls. No morale boost though.
[*]Not having heard from Googlie anymore the last half day and seeing that Zeiter would like to stick to the old plan, I moved the CP and rover according to the original plan. I hope I'm not playing too fast here. [/list]
midturn

Now we have flamed the fungal tower, we have an extra cash reserve of 20c, bringing us to 28 credits. Meaning we have the opportunity to hurry something.

If we want, we can choose between:

The gun skimship in Gythium Harbour. 15 credits would suffice.

The former in Sparta Command. 18 credits. Unless there's confirmation to change that production to a CP of course. (?)

Or we could wait until next year and then hurry a former in the western crater base (Ironholm?). That would probably cost 23 credits.

So what does everyone think we should do?

	25-07-2004 07:04									#235
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I vote for hurrying the gunship. The earlier we contact the others, the better the chance of us being able to play tech broker or gaining EC's for comm frequencies. Plus, we'll have 1 more unit that can pop pods.

I would also try to hurry the last 6 mins or so of the former that we'll probably build at the Crater West base. Would we have enough $$$ for both of these things?

Edit: R-112 CRV survived without a scratch? Hehehe, those are my boys.

I would actually prefer Sparta Command to produce a CP instead of a former, but it looks like we would lose 1 min due to retooling. I'm okay with that, but what do others think?

Last edited by Zeiter on 25-07-2004 at 07:23

	25-07-2004 09:57									#236
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I'd vote to hurry the foil as well

	25-07-2004 10:02									#237
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Can we contact an AI player if our foil encounters a base or a land unit of theirs?

	25-07-2004 10:03									#238
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yes

	25-07-2004 11:22									#239
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Sorry for the short answers (and inaccessability) - I was at a friend's for the day and just got on to the internet after his kids went to bed - but now I'm home (albeit late)

I'd rush the gunfoil, then wait till the next base is founded and put a former in production and rush it to completion

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Alas, IIRC that's only the first fifteen turns.

Correct - it's 75/DIFF (so where we are playing Transcend level - diff 5 - that's 15 years)

quote: Originally posted by Maniac For the pod within the crater. That pod is on fungus, and I can't immediately remember ever getting a nutrient bonus on a fungus tile. This seems confirmed by what the Prima Guide writes: "In normal, non-fungus, non-sea aquares" So we are pretty certain NOT to get a nutrient bonus there

That's prolly true. About the only goodie that seems to come from a fungus pod is a monolith. But a mindworm is more likely

	25-07-2004 11:46									#240
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quote: Sorry for the short answers (and inaccessability)

Short and to the point, the Spartan way. In any case, I agree that rushing the foil would be best.