08-07-2004 23:48									#121
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sented!

	09-07-2004 00:45									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Sent, but with a question...

	09-07-2004 07:08									#123
	Round 3 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The galaxy got its first taste of hot spy action this round.
The spy managed to smear himself across GeneralTacticus's raised shield.

Smiley sent a frigate to test Gamecube's defences, and the report sent back was not promising. This ship too ran staight into a system-wide shield.

Fortunately, for Spaced Cowboy's fleet at least, Kassi's shield generator had been burnt out in the previous round and was being repaired by engineers. Of less fortune for his fleet, Kassi's industry had been busy churning out mammoth shipping, with no less than 6 titan-classed vessels protecting his airspace. To battle!

code:
RAW DATA
Spaced		Kassi
-----------------------------------
15 lasers	10 lasers
15 lasers	10 fighters
0 fighters	10 torpedoes
0 fighters	10 fighters
0 torpedoes	10 torpedoes
0 torpedoes	10 lasers

ADJUSTED DATA
Spaced		Kassi
-----------------------------------
30 lasers	20 lasers	Kassi takes 10 hits
60 lasers	10 fighters	Kassi takes 50 hits and is wiped out

In a surprising turn of events, one fleet has survivors.
Superior tactics win the day, it appears.

Kassi's fleet takes 60 damage
His fleet is wiped out

code:




 
Player Name
 
Bases
 
BPs
 
TotalShips
 
Frigates(1)
 
Cruisers(2)
 
Battleships(3)
 
Dreadnaughts(4)
 
Titans(5)
 



 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 
Las
 
Fig
 
Torp
 



 
 Smiley
 
3(3)
 
21
 
7
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
1
 
3
 
3
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 



 
Chaunk
 
6
 
39
 
1
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
1
 
-
 
-
 
-
 



 
Spaced Cowboy
 
3(5)
 
25
 
10
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
1
 
-
 
-
 
9
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 



 
Gamecube64
 
5(4)
 
33
 
2
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
2
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 



 
Joncha
 
5
 
26
 
7
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
2
 
2
 
2
 
1
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 



 
Dr Spike
 
5
 
25
 
7
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
1
 
2
 
2
 
2
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 



 
GeneralTacticus
 
5
 
29
 
12
 
2
 
2
 
2
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
2
 
2
 
2
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 



 
Geomodder
 
5
 
30
 
8
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
1
 
1
 
-
 
1
 
1
 
1
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
1
 
1
 
1
 



 
Jamski
 
(3)
 
18
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 
-
 

Last edited by Skanky Burns on 09-07-2004 at 09:11

	09-07-2004 07:12									#124
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Am I the only one who sees some oddities in the combat results? Spaced took over twice the damage Kassi did, yet he lost the same number of ships, and they were smaller. That amount of damage should have been enough to destroy ten battleships.

	09-07-2004 07:25									#125
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yeah. 35 is enough to destroy three Titans and damage a Titan to half-death, but Spaced's death toll is fishy.

	09-07-2004 07:33									#126
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Spaced took 80 damage. He shouldn't have a fleet anymore.

	09-07-2004 07:33									#127
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dammit, Skanky! Calculate first, drink second!

	09-07-2004 07:37									#128
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Its combat v1.2, so all ships have twice the hit-points of their size class. Calculate it yourself if you don't believe me.

EDIT: But yes, Spaced's fleet should have been wiped out.

	09-07-2004 07:40									#129
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh, so Titans have 20 hit points now? Doesn't 35 mean that only one Titan is annihilated and one damaged, then?

	09-07-2004 07:42									#130
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

80 damage is enough to destroy 10 battleships, even with 8 HP each. How many ships did Spaced send?

	09-07-2004 07:45									#131
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I miscalculated Spaced's hitpoints. Fixed now though.
Titans have 10 hitpoints, so the damage done to your fleet is correct.

	09-07-2004 07:46									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ah, okay. All is fine then, no one attacks my ships and leaves alive

	09-07-2004 07:55									#133
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sent.

	09-07-2004 07:57									#134
	Re: Round 3 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Okay how about

code:
RAW DATA
Spaced		Kassi
-----------------------------------
15 lasers	10 lasers
15 lasers	10 fighters
0 fighters	10 torpedoes
0 fighters	10 fighters
0 torpedoes	10 torpedoes
0 torpedoes	10 lasers

Close, default	default
L > F > T > L

ADJUSTED DATA
Spaced		Kassi
-----------------------------------
30 lasers	20 lasers	Kassi takes 10 hits (Note: 2x for close)
Kassi loses 1 laser titan (10points)
60 lasers	10  fighters Kassi takes 50 hits (Note: 2x for close, 2x for L>F)
Kassi loses 5 titans his fleet is destroyed by superior tactics.
0 fighters	0 torpedoes	
0 fighters	0 fighters	
0 torpedoes	0 torpedoes	
0 torpedoes	0 lasers	

I like these results better.

Either way Kas whould lose all his ships, you miscalculated my damage using current rules.

	09-07-2004 08:03									#135
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What exactly were the OoBs and formations?

	09-07-2004 08:04									#136
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Orders sent, with some questions.

	09-07-2004 08:05									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oob are in the raw data with the formation below that

Mt oob is llfftt, his is lftftl
I had close and all others were normal, including his.

	09-07-2004 08:09									#138
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

With those OoBs, Spaced indeed had a wipeout victory.

Now, while the knockout rule 1.2 has certainly made single-weapon fleets more predictable, it has made them even more powerful.

	09-07-2004 08:19									#139
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually, had he put his torps against my lasers in the second round, he would have won.

That would have taken me out while only blowing away two of his titans. My oob's beat or tied his at every instance.

	09-07-2004 08:59									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Bah. So, what, ten battleships with a single weapon can blaze away six titans with some luck? I'm awfully glad I got annihilated this early in the game.

	09-07-2004 09:04									#141
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Combat needs to be reworked.

	09-07-2004 09:09									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, I do see one fluke.

I took 50 hits, and my entire fleet was destroyed, when a single fighter titan, 1/5th of my remaining fleet, was fighting with a heap of laser-equipped ships. Sure, the fighters and the carrier got toasted, but the same time the entire fleet with its variety of weapons got decimated? I don't know how to solve this without making it awfully hard for the GM though.

The OOB may have a little too large a role, still. It factors in a lot of luck, which I usually run out of very quickly. If your Ls and Fs happen to be in a good order, you can utterly destroy a superior fleet that has a multitude of weapons (to try to counter anything anyone could throw against it).

	09-07-2004 09:21									#143
	Support Apolyton

A problem is 1.2, moreso that 1.1, encourages single-weapon fleets. Obviously, the counter for single-weapon laser fleets is a single-weapon torp fleet. Had Kassi survived the first two rounds though, Spaced's fleet would have been decimated by the unanswered barrage of fighter and torpedo fire (both at x2 due to no return fire). Luck needs to play some roll in the game.

Tentatively, I'll put this one down to luck and see how the next round goes using 1.2 .

	09-07-2004 09:33									#144
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns A problem is 1.2, moreso that 1.1, encourages single-weapon fleets. Obviously, the counter for single-weapon laser fleets is a single-weapon torp fleet.

Didn't the same problem plague 1.0 too, which prompted 1.1? And obviously, the counter for a single-weapon torp fleet is a single-weapon fighter fleet... and the merry-go-round goes round and round.

But if you build a sw fleet you're forced to attacking and attacking every turn with everything you've got, without any worry for your remaining bases, because if you stay behind someone with the right weapon to counter yours _will_ attack. It makes for an aggressive game but imho removes a certain degree of tactical thought.

quote: Had Kassi survived the first two rounds though, Spaced's fleet would have been decimated by the unanswered barrage of fighter and torpedo fire (both at x2 due to no return fire). Luck needs to play some roll in the game.

* Kassiopeia shrugs

Let's just hope this was a case of phenomenally good/bad luck.

	09-07-2004 09:34									#145
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orders sent

	09-07-2004 11:03									#146
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Didn't the same problem plague 1.0 too, which prompted 1.1? And obviously, the counter for a single-weapon torp fleet is a single-weapon fighter fleet... and the merry-go-round goes round and round. But if you build a sw fleet you're forced to attacking and attacking every turn with everything you've got, without any worry for your remaining bases, because if you stay behind someone with the right weapon to counter yours _will_ attack. It makes for an aggressive game but imho removes a certain degree of tactical thought.

The problem with 1.0 wasn't so much single-weapon fleets as the fact that there was a 1 in 6 chance of the OOBs lining up in such a way that one fleet dished out all the damage and took none in return, no matter what the disparities in size or firepower were. Hence, the OOB was lengthened, and the x2 rule was implemented.

quote: * Kassiopeia shrugs Let's just hope this was a case of phenomenally good/bad luck.

Well, I'd certainly call it that; if you'd put something other than fighters in for your second round, Spaced wouldn't have done nearly as well.

	09-07-2004 11:53									#147
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And his balanced fleet would have brought its full firepower to bear.

	09-07-2004 12:17									#148
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Actually... boring statistics time... in 2 cases from 3 a balanced fleet of equal size (10-10-10) will defeat a 1-weapon fleet. (30-0-0)

Conclusion : 1-weapon fleets suXX0rs.

I can't believe I'm still alive!

Orders Sent!

-Jam

	09-07-2004 12:21									#149
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ah, Jamski... you know it's just a cunning plan to ween you off of NWN.

Before you know it, you'll be back at the Event again.

	09-07-2004 12:33									#150
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well... I do read threads there sometimes

-Jam