29-07-2004 04:13									#91
	world war against greece again Enter the AD-FREE zone

775bc

well, andydog traded philosophy for worldwide peace. now i brought the people back to war against him. in the end the AI is profiting of this (by getting techs and money), but it still makes them concentrate resources on army and therefor slowing them down otherwise.

the big difference to last time: i didn't get the germanics to join.
a) because the only tech they didn't have is monarchy and i quite like the monopoly on this.
b) 13gpt is just too much for the fact that he won't send any mounted warriors over there.

the disadvantage is that the germanics are going to be even stronger now because they will rex while their neighbors won't. hopefully egypt and/or babylon will drag them into the war

	29-07-2004 04:30									#92
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Go for SoZ

	29-07-2004 05:20									#93
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economical calculation

the SoZ:
free units every 5 turns at a (subjective) unit "worth" of about 45s. i reckon at least 8 techs will be researched before metallurgy at a pace of maybe 12 turns per tech.
that's about 100 turns, spawning 20 ACs in that time. -->
estimated benefit: 20x45s=900shield
cost: 300s
net: +600s

the great library:
about 6-7 techs before education apears. averaging at 10 turns per tech (free techs for scientific speed things up) that's about 60-70 turns. if i can reduce research in that time to 0%, i can gain about +40g -->
estimated benefit: 65x40 = 2600s
cost: 400s
net: +2200s

here's not considered that i wouldn't lose time building "harrassment units" against germany and celtania, but otoh with the GL i gain time by rushing some things (a temple every 6 turns eg.)

of course, the distances make ACs better than legionaries (which are just too slow), but otoh legionaries can survive a counterattack more likely with their 3 defence than the AC with 2 (despite retreat possibility).

the GL would btw take 7 turns more than SoZ (i'm effective getting out about 14 shields per turn in veii).

so economically speaking, the GL would be the much better choice! from AI expansion point of view, it's the SoZ... but can it make up for the over 1500 sabre-points the GL gets more?

	29-07-2004 06:27									#94
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The thing is though, you don't know if Greece has Ivory or not. If they were to get the SoZ, you'd be in trouble.

	01-08-2004 13:23									#95
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SoZ isn't really useful against du human oponent. the unit just isn't strong or enough to be effective. and especially against city-fortified hoplites it'd be quite useless.

but i'm still going to build it (ETA: 5, at cost of city growth) as you recommmended. i figured they are going to be my best chance for MGLs (so far 2 elite victories)


now it's 690bc, and i'm really enjoying my GA. 2 cities with 17, respectively 16 production... that's something you seldom get this early on! i can pump out 30-costing units at a 2 turn pace. and even my outside cities have enough production to build temples and/or courthouses to make them useful in the post-GA-phase.

heinrich just demanded monarchy from me. i just sent him back to bavaria... and he smiled and left politely.

oh, and i may lose my first battle soon. my spearman is redlined defending a worker from a barb and another spearman is standing in the middle of carthagian lands and is facing an archer. even if i survive, the distance back is a long one.
oh, and my legionary pillaged the 2nd-last road in carthagian existance...

	01-08-2004 21:51									#96
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An AC army will be a nasty thing to face for some time, even with the UA mod. Better to have it than it than to face it.

	02-08-2004 02:32									#97
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an AC army would be wonderful... but let me first get an army (the more the better )

i'd love to have a stack of 4 knight armies cutting through those hoplites like a hot knife through butter.

but as i can't attack cities, i'm stuck with attacking wandering units... that doesn't make too many battles and most of the time far away from my next city. so for the beginning, i'll be happy with one


andy is still having trouble with his internet connection, so this game is currently moving very slowly... it'll speed up when he gets it fixed again

	02-08-2004 06:15									#98
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i'm not sure if he's going to do it this game because of the AU modifications of philosophy (virtually no trading value, only (slightly) cheaper than monarchy and the same price as construction...(

Actually, the increase in the cost of Philosophy gives it a very high trade value. But of course a civ has to be first to research it to get anything like the full advantage of that trade value.

	02-08-2004 12:35									#99
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hey, nathan, already here?

i got philo first, but i didn't trade it to anybody because they had virtually nothing to offer. the best AI had something around 80g. so i decided to hold on to it for a while. too bad andy researched it about 4 turns after i did and bought himself free AND into tech parity.


btw guys: persia doesn't have any iron hooked up. is there any chance of sending it to them? will they ever build a harbour? immortals could make the hoplite's lives a bit more difficult

	02-08-2004 14:06									#100
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Keep in mind that until either you or Persia can see a coastal route between your harbor and theirs, their having a harbor doesn't matter. Also keep in mind that a trade route can't go through the territory of a civ you're at war with, and that until Astronomy, water trade routes have to stick to the coast. So while you're at war with Greece, your only option for a water trade route with Persia would probably be to have peace with Carthage and trade through Carthaginian waters. (Or if you and Carthage are at peace and things get hooked up properly, an overland trade route through Carthaginian territory might be possible at some point.)

	02-08-2004 15:09									#101
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my curragh is already 90% around the continent (passing persian lands) and should establish coastal trade contact within 10 turns, except if a barb galley should appear, but chances are slim because there's not much unsettled land in this area (see attachment).

speaking of barbs: i'm halfway through a slow currency research and construction should soon come from an AI, so i presume there will be lots and lots of horsemen roaming roman territories that's why i'm sending out some units to clear away the huts.


oh, and as predicted, i lost my spearman to the carthagian archer... too bad, it did have a HP more

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	02-08-2004 15:15									#102
	Inflate your Upload Space

the score at 670bc:
me: 277, andydog: 200... and i've still got the biggest part of the GA ahead of me while his is probably over by now


nbarclay: a condition to pass into the next DAR was the complete map of the pangea. how did you manage to reveal all of theseus' area? i doubt you guys are already at navigation this early in the game...

	02-08-2004 19:11									#103
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf nbarclay: a condition to pass into the next DAR was the complete map of the pangea. how did you manage to reveal all of theseus' area? i doubt you guys are already at navigation this early in the game...

Oh ye of little faith.

I'm afraid you'll have to wait a bit for details, though, because when and if Theseus can trade for a world map, he'll be allowed to look here and I'd rather not say too much where he might see it.

	02-08-2004 19:38									#104
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i had forgotten your peaceful beginning... that explains a lot towards the tech pace

oh well... we're up to 670bc and still 2 techs away from medieval ages. so i don't expect navigation until 1000ad or so. but then... greece and persia are scientific, germany and us romans are quite potent researchers too, so it may speed up a bit here aswell. i just hope egypt and babylon don't go to war against each other because i need them grabbing potential greek lands. and persia is currently doing a great job in expanding... too bad greece has a huge area behind their capital.

are there any specific screenshots i should post? any requests?

	03-08-2004 04:29									#105
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another elite victory (archer vs. archer) and no MGL.

by now, carthagian cities must be dying of unhappiness... and probably the only thing they are producing are archers.

why? 4 cities: all size one (ok, i can't see the 4th city yet, as it's still in the fog, but i'm extrapolating). they never reach 2. that means either hannibal is rushing as soon as the city grows, or unhappiness is forcing them to use specialist citizens (a human would make it taxman or scientist at size 1, but the AI always takes entertainers).

in an old thread i read that the AI builds a certain ratio of attackers and defenders. and as NuMercs are only defensive (at this point i repeat: give NMs the "offensive" flag in the next AU mod), hannibal keeps creating archers... which i have no big problem controlling.

	03-08-2004 04:30									#106
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in the screenshot attached, you can see my elite archer up north. it's exposed and a counterattack by his NM would be fatal... but i'm trusting in the AI to be stubborn... so far NMs have never attacked me... even when a 1 HP elite warrior was standing right beside the capital

the orange circle is btw. a spot a plan to settle. possible also the half-visible tile on the right of the screenie. with culture rushes, i'll then nearly have a connected area... and the longer i keep carthage at war, the less culture building will they build. it'll take quite some time (carthago's culture is beyond 100 and +2 every turn), but eventually i should also be able to grab the red dotted tiles... but that's faaar away still

Attachment: au601_sw_650bc_1.png
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	03-08-2004 04:33									#107
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... for the bigger problem are the germanics. they've now started coming south with their settlers... that's bad... very bad.

i've got an alliance treaty with them, so it probably wouldn't be wise to break it... on the other hand: i'm ready for taking them on. SoZ is ready in 3 and legionaries are being pumped out too...

what should i do? is treaty breaking worth it for this single settler-bop?

Attachment: au601_sw_650bc_2.png
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	03-08-2004 04:39									#108
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

last for tonight: here are the scores at 650bc.

that's +5 points for me in the last turn and +4 for andydog. i've got 38% more points than him... but i had a powerstart in comparison with andydog (unlike theseus who actually had more points than nathan very early on)

compared to 950bc (300 years at 25 years/turn pace = 12 turns):
rome: from 224 to 282: +58 or +25.9%
greece: from 174 to 204: +30 or +17.2%

i definetly have the better momentum

Attachment: au601_sw_650bc_3.png
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	03-08-2004 07:42									#109
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Theseus's early lead came from building a settler before a granary instead of turning his capital into a settler pump right away. That kind of lead looks good on paper, but it doesn't reflect an advantage in long-term potential.

	03-08-2004 18:17									#110
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630bc

- SoZ in 2 turns
- my curragh will have sailed the whole continent in 3 turns (--> as soon as persia has a harbour, i'll make peace with carthage as give persia iron)
- my spearman is staying south of the german settler/archer-pair. this will slow them down if they are facing exactly south (no difference if they want to go SE)

	04-08-2004 20:02									#111
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610bc

the game isn't moving along as i had hoped... 2 turns per day isn't overwhelming at all! i hope andy and i can get in a good session some time this week.


but there has been some interesting development lately: the german archer-settler pair is coming further and further south... if only i knew where they are heading to?

my RoP with them ends in 6 turns, so if the city hasn't been founded by then, i'll try to settler-bop. my elite warrior has healed from the barbarian attack and is 3 tiles away.

this may be a good time to take on germany, as carthage is toast anyway. also, germany is the only civ i havn't bought into war against greece, so there's no alliance to break here. if there should be a hassle between us, then i'll get egypt and celts to fight on my side. germany would be forced to defend from 3 sides and it might slow down their expansion.

but on the other hand, cleopatra already has to send her guys towards greece, so maybe a 2 front war for them wouldn't be a smart move by me. i do want to weaken the AI, but more important my immediate neighbors. what do you guys think?

	04-08-2004 20:29									#112
	Got spare money?

meanwhile, a german archer is 3 tiles away from my dye city scouting. i'm thinking of leaving the city undefended (with 2 spearmen ready to march in) as a honeypot and hope that heinrich will send his archer to "scout" viroconium's borders. then, i'll force him out and with a bit of luck he'll declare war...
[see screenshot]


by the way: i think it wasn't nice of sir ralph to give the germanics horses and the celts iron, but not giving the persians iron

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	04-08-2004 23:55									#113
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590bc

bad year, really bad year!

andy once again made peace with everybody (except babylon) and persia demanded horseback riding! and it'd cost friggin' 11gpt and a RoP to get them back to war
well done andy!

in addition: persia just got monarchy, therefore removing my monopoly on it

Last edited by sabrewolf on 05-08-2004 at 00:06

	05-08-2004 01:29									#114
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570bc

3 elite victories this turn... no MGL

and oh great... i founded 2 new cities this turn and suddently the city rank corruption caused lutetia have waste rise from 50% to 67%

republic has appeared and 3 AI already have in... so i traded it for monarchy with the babylonians


550bc,
ok lutetia is back to 3spt because i've finally connected the city... AND i've now got horses!

i f#ed up veii when i sent it's spear north... now i've lost a turn due to civil disorder... stupid me!

	05-08-2004 01:50									#115
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530bc

- currency next turn.
- curragh is all around the continent
- settlers are being pumped out
- another spearman turned elite
- 13 cities, 1 camp, 3 settlers on the way, 2 settlers in production
- looking good

	06-08-2004 17:28									#116
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430bc

rome's golden age is over :sniff: :cry:

several new cities have been founded, the 2nd AC should come in one of the next turns (the first one was just regular because i f'ed up happiness in veii and the barracks came 1 turn later

but thanks to the GA, i got lots of courthouses built in medium-distance cities and they have respectable production (not overwhelming, but still). currently, 3 settlers are on the way to grabbing some carthagian territory (2 cities IN their space, 2 bordering) and then i'll finally give them peace and concentrate my forces towards germanic tribes.

	06-08-2004 18:51									#117
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370bc, i'm playing instead of typing my thesis

i'm up to 17 cities now, have 3 settlers walking and 3 more in production. my jungle dye's are finally connected and with 2 more road-tiles, i'll have my 3rd luxury.
jerusalem has been founded to steal carthago's gems (i decided to take both), but connecting these will take quite a long time.

meanwhile, 2 more elite victories and 2 more no-leader-spawned
it's time my ACs get into action

	06-08-2004 19:06									#118
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here are the scores...
currently, i'm pulling away from everybody by points, but many cities are useless and rome lies in a crappy position

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	06-08-2004 19:09									#119
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ok, here finally a screenshot of my territory.

i've basicly secured 3 iron sources (blue circles) and 4 types of luxuries. potentially, i could get incence from the germanic area, but that's still far away.

question
do you guys think i should also steal carthage's 2 ivory?

that would probably make me the only ivory broker and give me good a hand for later deals (peace, alliance, etc)


note: as i'm writing a lot and not getting many comments, i'll from now on write question in bold when asking explicitly for an opinion. but feel free to comment and/or request stuff any time...

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	06-08-2004 20:35									#120
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310bc

persia has construction, so do the germanics!!! so it's time for another great world war!

and andydog hasn't got any of them (but he's obviously got the republic, as he is in republic).

- so i traded currency to the germanics for construction which officially puts me and them into the medieval ages!!!

- then i traded currency to persia for war against greece plus 102g. knowing i want war against germany soon, i didn't want to let them have the money.
- persia got monotheism for free, so i'll research either engineering or feudalism. i think i'll go for feudalism...
- cancelled RoP (which had run out a long time ago) and peace from germany, therefor declaring war.
- celts joined the war against germany and greece (andy must have sent a curragh up north because they didn't know each other earlier) for writing (and they gave me 21g)
- egypt took currency for war against both...
- babylon would have been willing to go to war against germany for the renewal of the greek battle, but i gave them construction and currency to get them into the new age... they too got monotheism (gawd, i do hope andydog get monotheism too, once he sets foot in the mediaval age)


- my first AC battle was won without HP loss and promotion
- my vet 2 legionaries attacked 2 archers. first battle was perfect: promotion without HP loss. second battle was less optimal: 2 HP loss and no promotion... AND walking next to a stack of 1 elite sword and 1 vet archer
- i also killed a worker with my scouting warrior...

on the downside:
- i'm going to lose a warrior
- i'm going to lose a legionary
- andydog has republic so he can always buy himself out and back into the tech race

Last edited by sabrewolf on 06-08-2004 at 20:44