10-08-2004 02:25									#151
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before the iron, i also sued germany for peace. they were happy to give me monotheism for a mere 5 more gold.

* sabrewolf takes of course.

now i'm up to date in techs AND i'm ahead by engineering. but andydog is either going to get this any moment now, or chivalry or theology.

i would trade it to all civs, but none had any gpt money that would have made it worth it (andy has probably tied them up in gpt deals when he got feudalism and monotheism).
maybe in one of the next turns...

meanwhile, i'm rushing for invention, as no civ can be doing that (engineering is nowhere to be seen)

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	10-08-2004 02:49									#152
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i've just discovered that i managed to in fact flash the leader generation itself... until now, i always missed it...


edit: this is still my 3rd leader... it's not another one. i'm not that lucky

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	10-08-2004 04:51									#153
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70ad
persia got theology before everybody else!
however, i have no idea what andy is researching, so i don't want to spread theology too much. anyway... i'd probably not be able to afford it. engineering +18gpt+230g wasn't accepted by persia and i'm not willing to sacrifice even more. so i'll wait another turn or two. if i'm lucky, another AI will get it before andy does.


90ad
i can pump up my research to about 70 beakers without loss and up to 90 with acceptable loss. that's probably less than persia and greece, but it still gives me a good shot at invention.

i have attached the newest scores.

compared to 250bc (17 turns ago),
rome has gone from 405 to 569, which is +164 or +40.5% respectively +9.65 per turn.
greece grew from 257 to 313, increasing by +56 or +21.8% respectively +3.3 per turn.

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	10-08-2004 05:02									#154
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so i'm getting nearly 3 times to points per turn of andy! but still he is a research powerhouse! even if i could pump up research to 90% by financing myself via AI, i'd still barely keep up.

the wierd thing: from what i can see of the culture borders (see attachment) only 4 cities have over 10 culture (pharsalos, knossos, sparta, and the non-visible capital athens). how can these and the other 5-7 cities outproduce my economy? is republic beefed up that much in the AU mod?

another wierd thing when you look at his screenshot: why has he not REXed more agressively? he just needs around 4 hoplites covering the persian border and a few more against egypt and babylon. the rest would be easy to fill up!

but i see delphi (top left) stuck between mountains and marshland... just for that luxury resource there.
the incense sources south, the wheat and cattle and the nice and juicy sugar-river-plains are still unclaimed.

i was beginning to think that my ultra-agressive "get-all-to-war-against-him" style backfired.. but if that is also the reason for his expansion, then maybe it was a good choice

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	10-08-2004 05:10									#155
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last screens for tonight, the ranks (score, power, culture)

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	10-08-2004 05:16									#156
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here the demographics screen of 90AD

believe me: it's the complete oposite of my SP games where i am the real builder type.

now i've got the largest military but miserable technology rates.
at least i earn the most and produce the 2nd most (who's first there? can't be greece, so it must be egypt or persia?)

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	10-08-2004 05:20									#157
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

and last, but not least, the victory condition screen.

actually a joke, because:
- no chance for domination or conquest because of the au601-restrictions
- cultural is nearly impossible because 100k is too difficult on standard sized map and 20k only works with enough ancient wonders
- diplomatic? ... most hate me. persians, greeks, germans and carthagians all felt my wrath, so at best i could get 4 votes. but cleo is a bit self confident

so the only thing left is space race... and that could be quite tricky i andy continues his techwhoring!


so there are imho 2 variants:

A) i conquer greece, then go for spacerace.
B) i don't conquer greece, lose spacerace.

simple, right?

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	10-08-2004 07:30									#158
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Given the disparity in populations, about the only way I can imagine someone having higher Mfg. Goods than you is if either (1) one of the top other civs is in a golden age or (2) a huge percentage of your population is in distant cities without courthouses. (Of course it's always possible that my imagination at the moment isn't as good as it ought to be. )

	10-08-2004 13:47									#159
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110ad

andy continues to impress and surprise me with his resourcefulness!
he has made peace with persia and in fact brought them back to war against me!!! after just 3 turns!

and to think that i had given them iron in that time and now lots of immortals are swarming around

oh well... by the time they come, i'll have to turn them around against him again

	10-08-2004 20:07									#160
	the downfall of greece, part I Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

undocumented and only known as rumors, caesar had secretly dispatched 2 armies, loaded with ancient cavalry to surprise attack the greek-persian border.

caesar knew from earlier epic battles against alexander that defences were mostly limited but lots of reinforcements are ready.

despite the war, slowing down the journey by a few years, roman armies slipped through persian lands and waited in the shadow for their troops to gain energy for the big assault...

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	10-08-2004 20:10									#161
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as expected, the defence wasn't very strong, but caesar didn't expect just one single hoplite commando defending knossos.

alexander may be able to read, write and teach the kids of his world the art of technology, but when it comes to the art of war, he can only learn from caesar the great!

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	10-08-2004 20:13									#162
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the second army, also waiting in the shadow of persia to rescue what could be rescued, had knossos been better defended, dashed out from the desert and removed the overwhelmed and surprised hoplites that had been watching the conquering of knossos and only took little losses...

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	10-08-2004 20:41									#163
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back to topic war wariness:

i'm going from the minimal possible

- 28 (from my declaration of war)
+16 points from loss of knosses
+ 4 from 2 unit losses
+ 2 from 2 worker capturing

that's something around
- 6 WW points... so 36 more to make him feel the effect. that means at least 2 more cities...

after that, another 2 more, and he'd have 50% unhappy people. but if i should get that far that i capture/raze 5 cities, i've probably won anyway...

now i hope andy doesn't have a great army coming towards me...

as soon as i can get peace with persia (6 elite wins, 1-2 losses, no new leader), i'll bring on a few reinforcements. legionaries should do a good job defending knossos and i'll need another AC to fill in one of my unfull armies.

meanwhile, my economy is great! thanks to the war declared by persia against me, i've got enough happiness to put luxuries down to 0%! and next turn, i'll also get the gems hooked up and in about 20 turns the incense i went to grab from germany, should be available...

things are looking good. and as long as i don't get surprise attacked by germany or the celts, i can focus on persia and mainly greece

	10-08-2004 21:13									#164
	yet another leader! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

210AD

persia offered me peace in the beginning, but i declined so i could leaderfarm one last time. i threw everything i had into it, even wounded units. i even lost a ver spear against a wounded archer, but my 3HP elite spear killed the archer and.... spawned another leader

i've used this one to rush the pentagon, switching rome to wonder-building (currently sun tzu's, but as i won't get that one because the AI probably cascaded to that not long ago, i guess i'll switch to leo's).

heroic epic will be completed in 4 turn ins veii.


luxury is now permanently down to 0%. the celts are trading me furs (for ivory+spices+4gpt) and the gems are hooked up. so now i can survive most cities without cathedral and marketplace up to the size of 9. above, i need garrison and/or more happiness than temples.

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	10-08-2004 22:08									#165
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210ad afterthoughts

interesting... engineering still hasn't been researched. i decided correctly (and lucky) chosing that one! had andy received that as free tech and an AI had research feudalism, it would look worse. one the other hand... if andy would have got monotheism, he wouldn't have theology either, so i guess this was the "neutral" solution. no great luck for either of us...

i'm not intending to share it yet until chivalry becomes available! it would be bad luck if someone else should get it before chivalry comes up, but as i can trade to the AI just before andy, i could profit of that situation.

i presume andy is researching chivalry because he needs faster units against my armies. i can currently attack 2 units and still retreat to regain strength.

by the way... thanks to 3 new cities, some courthouses and libraries and the 0% luxury rate, and getting some gpt from persia (for iron) i can now research at about 120 beakers per turn. this could get me invention in 2 turns, but as engineering is nowhere else to be seen, i'll take it a bit more easy and save for some rushes (eg in knossos).


now another question:
where is a good place to put my FP? i'm planning to move the palace later on to a more central part of my empire, where i currently would place the FP. should i build it in rome just after i move the palace?
i know it's the first thing good players build when available, but i never have the guts to build it soon enough. what would you guys recommend? this is what my empire currently looks like (2 of 29 cities not visible).
rome and veii are the best. antium, neapolis, ravenna, pompeii and lutetia are reasonably productive.

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	11-08-2004 01:08									#166
	Increase Your PM Length

In an SP game of C3C I am not in a big rush to build the FP. If it was PTW or CivIII, that is different.

In an MP game it is more imperitive, well maybe that is a bit strong. So it depends on when you expect to move the palace and how.

If not soon, then build the FP. I would think any place like Pompei/Byzantium should work, if you then plan to move the palace to the north of the area.

I am thinking that you get lots of land around those spots and are close enough to the AI that you keep presure off of the front line cities for culture flips.

Understand I am more of a shot from the hip guy and do not sweat getting the extra ounce. On the other hand I have not had to face humans.

	11-08-2004 01:26									#167
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thanks for your opinion!

byzantium wouldn't be a good spot because it has too little food. 4 plains and 1 floodplain - the rest are hills and mountains. so FP would be a bit wasted there. pompeii however sounds very good.
and your argument to take pressure off the front cities... well, i guess then i should build it further north as germany and the celts are harder to control (persia just needs 2 choke-points defended and carthage hasn't even got writing yet...

i'm planning to move the palace once rome, antium and veii have produced enough buildings (cathedral, library, university, courthouse, etc) and when i get a leader for that in the right moment

the next two leaders will go towards armies. maybe a knight army, or maybe saving for a cavalry army (1 empty army is waiting for chivalry in augustadorum) (4 knights is 6,5,3 )

	11-08-2004 03:55									#168
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230ad

killed warrior, bopped greek settler

and...

...

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	11-08-2004 04:52									#169
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes I saw the less than great tiles, but I am also interested in getting the neighborhood cities a boost, not just the FP city.

Anyway without looking a the actual save and counting shields it is hard to know. I really don't see it has a crucial choice so long as it is not poorly placed.

I love the Pentagon. The 4th unit makes the armies so much stronger.

	11-08-2004 15:22									#170
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i captured sparta!

as i've seen in some 1on1 games against andydog, he tends to keep his behind towns less defended. and i presumed (correctly) that the 2 hoplites and 2 swordsmen near knosses were in fact reinforcements coming from sparta. as they couldn't arrive back in time and andy wasn't suspecting my 2nd cavalry army to come "from behind".

so i took a shot at attacking it and got it with my 2nd AC army.

edit: improved image illustration. the 4 turns after the capturing of knossos:
1: hide in hills
2: pass through the desert to iron mountain (at this point he may have discovered me, as his settler and warrior were where the lower workers are standing. i presume they were heading south before... but after my assault on knosses went back north)
3: W, N, N: kill warrior, capture worker, surprise andy (who's units were at that time on the blue circled tile)
4: move 1: worker captured, move 2: pillage, move 3: attack sparta& take it.

i was thinking of razing it, but the barracks came in handy and i can always use a regrouping city in the middle of greece.


invention is coming next turn, but chivalry is still nowhere to be seen

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Last edited by sabrewolf on 11-08-2004 at 20:26

	11-08-2004 17:05									#171
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250ad

scoreboxes in comparison

after taking out 2 greek cities and 1 settler, i should have double his score soonish.


as to why his defences were so weak: i presume he didn't expect me to come through persian lands while at war with them. but he probably expected me to get babylon and egypt into war. so i expect he has quite a few hoplites and counter-attacking units up north.

so my next cities are going to be western ones. (corinth is cut off since the spartan liberation)
and i'll always try to shoot out of the shadows so he has no idea where i come from.

btw: taking sparta must have been a great blow to his economy! he had the gems tile roaded and mined so it was producing around 6 tradeunits (gems: +4, road: +1, republic: +1) and 3 shields. he had a marketplace (i sold it instantly) and most likely a library. so that tile alone gave him 9 beakers/gold. in republic, with the river and the roads, sparta (was size 6) must have been producing about 22 tradeunits. minus corruption: ~18... so ~27 total. what a blast to his economy!

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	11-08-2004 19:40									#172
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ouch

	11-08-2004 19:47									#173
	Remove this text

Fiesty - sabre - fiesty

Great tactics, I'm now only to pleased we removed you from the ironciver early on

	11-08-2004 20:06									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Mickeyj Fiesty - sabre - fiesty Great tactics, I'm now only to pleased we removed you from the ironciver early on

thanks!

i'm not a bad player, but i suck awfully at human diplomacy (well, people don't tend to cooperate too friendly with the point leader ).

that's why 2 human players is ideal for me. no unfair plotting, no sympathy bonuses/disadvantages... only AI diplomacy where rules are the same for everybody


i never had any problem controlling the AI. i was at a time at war with 3 AIs and greece. every tech i researched was a first tech, so i always had trade value.
i just wished we had chosen emperor level. things wouldn't be this comfortable (for either of us), but at least it wouldn't be a 2-way battle, but maybe even a 8-way one.

eg. i've heard that alexman had quite some quarrels with gallic swordsmen (but also was successfully leaderfarming), while the celts in my game hardly exited their peninsula (3 unconnected plains cities). germany grabbed a lot of land, but their cities are so wide spread that reinforcements took too long to even defend them against egypt.

maybe next time emperor

	11-08-2004 20:19									#175
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i have updated the illustration and strategy report here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...016#post3212016

	11-08-2004 21:35									#176
	Increase Your PM Length

Are you playing the 3 city elimination rule?

	11-08-2004 21:47									#177
	Get a bigger avatar today!

no, why?

if you mean my quite optimistic text a few posts ago, that's because i feel quite comfortable now about the outcome of the game.

	11-08-2004 23:16									#178
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hmm

must have been reading too much AU history of late, I was sure there was discussion about a 3 city elimination rule, but I have read back through the original posts and cant now find the reference. That or I'm just getting old and making things up.

It will also teach me not to post at work, when i havnt time to check these things first.

	11-08-2004 23:33									#179
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maybe that was an old AU course, but i'm quite sure it's not in this game.
actually i'm 100% sure, because germany lost 3 cities (2 to egypt, one destroyed by the celts)...

	12-08-2004 01:47									#180
	Put an end to popups!

260ad

not sure if this is good or bad news. but i've solved the sparta situation. andy actually helped me decide, by placing the 2 vet hoplites and 2 vet swordsmen on the mountain beside sparta.

so what were my options? i had an attack capability or 5 turns. but hoplites or mountains have defence of 6. my big AC army has an attack of 4... so i'd probably win 1 battle, maybe even 2, but my unit would be scrap and in grave danger.

so i gave up sparta by selling the barracks and abandoning it and gave it a shot at corinth. a hoplite on hills is has defence 4.5, and i was hoping for it to be the only unit.

unfortunatly it wasn't, for there was an sword inside!!! having suffered heavy losses with that AC army (from 13 to 4 HP), i withdrawed to a position he couldn't counterattack.
and the other AC army (4 of 10 HPs left) fled into andy's fog of war.

here before the attack with the future movements painted in:

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