16-08-2004 22:56									#211
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alex! ... welcome

i did get philosophy first, but didn't trade it around at the time because no AI had anything to offer at the time.
too bad andy got it only a few turns later... it brought him to tech parity with all AIs AND give him all their money.


edit: feel free to comment if you would have/did chose the same route or a different one...

	16-08-2004 23:25									#212
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This is something I've been holding off comment on, but since you hit on it, sabrewolf, I'll use your DAR to start it off.

It seems that across all the games, the fighting between the human players is taking place on Greek soil, in the face of retreating Greek troops. Do you guys think militaristic was that much better suited to this setup than scientific, that Rome's starting terrain (from what you know of the Greek start) was inherently better, or did all the best players just decide to play Rome ()?

	16-08-2004 23:51									#213
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I think the militaristic trait is better than we thought before the game started, even for this type of game. So Rome's slightly better terrain gave most Roman players an advantage.

	17-08-2004 00:05									#214
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A minor MM comment:

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf being in monarchy, lets me use the gold mountain for additional commerce...

In your place, with expansion and production usually being more important than commerce, I'd rather use Rome as a 4-turn Settler pump instead of working the gold mountain.

Actually, it's possible to do both (4-turn pump AND use the mountain) for two turns out of the four, but it doesn't seem you were doing that.

[Edit: or maybe you were. I'm just used to using high food in the second part of the cycle to get maximum production]

	17-08-2004 00:15									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi This is something I've been holding off comment on, but since you hit on it, sabrewolf, I'll use your DAR to start it off. It seems that across all the games, the fighting between the human players is taking place on Greek soil, in the face of retreating Greek troops. Do you guys think militaristic was that much better suited to this setup than scientific, that Rome's starting terrain (from what you know of the Greek start) was inherently better, or did all the best players just decide to play Rome ()?

i asked in the general thread why rome is nearly always ahead in score.

a part may be explained that the better players may have been more eager to start and asked for the game and therefor get rome... but that doesn't explain the big difference.

personally, i don't think militaristic is worth that much. from what andy told me, he's had a lot of elite victories too, but obviously wasn't leaderfarming as consequential as i was (in defence you have less chance, iirc). scientific may not kick in until a bit later, but i'm sure that as greece, i would have tried to get some leaders too (war chariots and bowmen come in big masses, but are much easier to kill than NMs, MWs and GSs would have been)

one advantage of us romans is carthage as neighbor: they were too easily controllable. despite having NMs, i never saw one of those outside of a town. after i had settlerbopped a settler-archer-pair early on and pillaged all roads, it was easy to control carthage. they were permanently building archers to get the proper offense-defense ratio and those were easily picked off by my elite warriors and archers and later on legionaries. to the north, germanics and celts were just too far away to endanger rome.

i'm sure that if andy would have bought them into war against me, my expansion would have been hampered a lot more...

	17-08-2004 00:16									#216
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf by the way: i think it wasn't nice of sir ralph to give the germanics horses and the celts iron, but not giving the persians iron

I understand your frustration, but I think Sir Ralph did a great job balancing this map for not having played it himself. Rome had the better starting location, so Iron to the Persians would have made things very bad for Greece.

	17-08-2004 00:19									#217
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Thanks for the thoughts, guys. I hadn't looked at Carthage for an explanation, but think you're onto something there. I think the biggest thing with militaristic wasn't whether or not one leaderfarmed (as you say, you'd have tried it with Greece, too), but how much more productive it tends to be with an equal effort.

	17-08-2004 00:19									#218
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quote: Originally posted by alexman A minor MM comment: In your place, with expansion and production usually being more important than commerce, I'd rather use Rome as a 4-turn Settler pump instead of working the gold mountain. Actually, it's possible to do both (4-turn pump AND use the mountain) for two turns out of the four, but it doesn't seem you were doing that. [Edit: or maybe you were. I'm just used to using high food in the second part of the cycle to get maximum production]

your edit said it

in GA-monarchy i was doing a 4-turn legionary-settler pump. the first turn was +4 food (using the gold mountain), the 2nd +6. the nice thing about that is that food counts before the city grows, but production comes after... i a mined hill tile always gave me 3 shields for free (even when i switched it away again).

after my GA, i only had a 5-turn spearman-settler pump. i could have gone for a 4-turn settler pump, but i wouldn't have been enough to create a unit inbetween (except a warrior, if i had cut off the iron source). is that what you meant?

	17-08-2004 00:20									#219
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf but has it got the same effect as in SP?

It's the same, but there is a bug, both in SP and in MP in the way war weariness is calculated. It doesn't affect the first player (human in SP, or first human in MP), but it affects the subsequent players in the turn order.

	17-08-2004 00:25									#220
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I understand your frustration, but I think Sir Ralph did a great job balancing this map for not having played it himself. Rome had the better starting location, so Iron to the Persians would have made things very bad for Greece.

as you may notice... that early fault turned out wrong. i never met the germanic riders and never fought gallic swordsmen.

i had just thought that hoplites (as the strongest defensive units) would have had more problems against immortals, GRs and GSs, than against lousy bowmen, war chariots and persian archers.

but i still think greece has the better (immediate) starting location... even if it's just because of the central athens.

quote: It's the same, but there is a bug, both in SP and in MP in the way war weariness is calculated. It doesn't affect the first player (human in SP, or first human in MP), but it affects the subsequent players in the turn order.

please explain

to the advantage or disadvantage of the 2nd player?

	17-08-2004 00:38									#221
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It depends who is supposed to suffer war weariness, although now that I read it again it seems things are OK for humans, and it affects only the AI. See Oystein's war weariness article

	17-08-2004 01:00									#222
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf nathan, you're sometimes reading this thread: have you already decided what you're going to do? once the game is wrapped up?

I'll probably play it out peacefully (or as peacefully as the AIs will let me), but I haven't decided for sure yet. I'll probably end up in Communism, not really based on cold calculation as to what government would let me win most quickly but more just because I'll want my captured Greek lands to be prosperous under my rule.

Edit: By the way, I've finished the second turn of my invasion of Greece, using something fairly close to a classic nbarclay cavalry blitz. I've struck deep into the Greek heartland, capturing Athens and some other core cities, but I don't know whether I brought enough cavalry with me to achieve a complete victory without having to bring in reinforcements.

	17-08-2004 02:01									#223
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf post-greek era: peace or war ... what would you choose?

With several Armies and the strength of your economy compared to that of the AI, you can pretty much win any way you like. Just have fun.

Well played.

	17-08-2004 02:18									#224
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greece is crumbling!

after the initial siege on corinth with no counterattack, caesar sent forth his cavalry army to claim corinth as part of the roman empire!
the resistance was poor a few unexperienced hoplites, who barely knew how to hold their spears and some primitive peasants with bats, unworthy of the name (warriors) they call themselves barely even scratched the mighty roman army.

and so, the city of corinth bowed to our and even payed us 14 pieces of gold to join in to our empire!

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	17-08-2004 02:28									#225
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meanwhile, the other roman army took on a risky manouvre.

after seeing 2 wounded offensive units out in the field, caesar knew that these units wouldn't be ready for a counterattack in the coming years because they had to go back to a city to regenerate.

and after seeing one of these units still standing in the jungle around pharsalos eating bananas, caesar sent his cavalry on a mission to liberate herakleia whilst destroying the greek roads on the way through.

legions in the north saw the city of thermophylae defended by some infantry and bablyonian pikemen covering the greek iron source (caesar recommended hammurabi to pillage the roads on those hills) and was positive that alexander must be struggling too much to have enough defences and counter attack measures for herakleia, for the city of athens was far more important and only a fool would defend a jungle city but leave the capital undefended.

so the army entered the forests of herakleia and prepared for whatever forces alexander would throw against them.

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	17-08-2004 02:36									#226
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greek scientists have discovered the secret of gunpowder!

it is a black powder and looks a bit like grinded pepper (but doesn't taste like it!). when lit, it makes a big bang and expands the air around massively. when this pressure is channeled in a gun barrel, small bits of stones and nails can be catapulted over a large distance and kill anything that gets hit by it!

this gun powder requires a seldom material called saltpeter. fortunatly, we have found a source within our empire, not too far from the carthagian borders.

as soon as rome completes leonardo's workshop, we will give all our spearmen and pikemen some of these guns (we call them muskets) to defend. from our enemies!

	17-08-2004 16:27									#227
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Great work Sabre!

	17-08-2004 17:16									#228
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dp

	17-08-2004 17:17									#229
	the siege of herakleia Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

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the mighty roman army attacked and attacked and attacked herakleia! but the greeks would not give up! after each battle, the generals would ask the greeks if they wanted to surrender and they denyed. after completely killing 3 bands of veteran hoplite units, caesar decided to give alexander some more time for serious thoughts.

with only a few unexperienced hoplites and possibly some even weaker units left, herakleia is going to fall soon anyway!

	17-08-2004 17:34									#230
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So you took the bait. Good for him. Not that it matters, but he bought himself a couple turns this way.

BTW: Hi everyone. I'm new here. Started lurking a month ago.

	17-08-2004 18:16									#231
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welcome to apolyton, modo
i'm proud to be the reason for your very first post (hope you're not just a DL )

what bait? herakleia? maybe athens wasn't defended as well as herakleia... but i'm playing it safe(r)

and btw: how would you know what trap he's laid out for me? his last DAR update is 1 week old, so around 150AD...

	17-08-2004 18:32									#232
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The bait (Herakleia) did take some turns to take, right? During those turns Athens was still Greek and could produce. And so were the cities farther away, allowing him to build some more units to fight you. All of them profited from the turns you used for Herakleia. A largely useless city was sacrificed for a couple more turns of safe production.

They will die, of course. But they will die later.

No, I didn't read anything about a trap in his DAR. It just looks like it was one.

	17-08-2004 18:48									#233
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ah, i understand.

well, i will be losing at least 5 turns on herakleia:
- pillage 1, move in place
- attack 1
- attack 2, take town
- heal
- move out again

it could possibly be even more if he has more than 6 defence units in it and/or my army is too weak to risk another assault and has to withdraw.

so yes, i am losing some turns.


BUT:
a) meanwhile my other army has taken corinth and may get another one, thereby isolating athens
b) athens surely is better defended, is connected by a road network (thereby having reinforcements come in from behind)
c) athens is "behind" a river, making defence 25% stronger
and
d) every lost city increases his war wariness by 15-16 points!

by me starting the war, he got -30 WW-points. i've already taken 3 cities, each costing him 16 points --> +48
net: +18 (no effect there)
but i killed 1 curragh, 3 units in corinth, 3 units near knossos, 4 from his knossos counterattack (and one failed attack), killed another warrior and captured a settler and 3 workers. and now i killed 3 more units in herakleia.
that's makes 16 attacks, each giving him +2 points. and the 4 non-combat units he lost costs another 4 points.

that's:
-30 + 48 (cities) + 32 (units) + 4 (captures) = +54

i havn't counted the number of turns my units were in his territory and that 1 turns his were in mine...

once i capture herakleia, his WW will be up to +70 points, giving him at least 50% unhappiness...

so delay or not... herakleia isn't a complete waste (and, i can use it later on in the game )

	17-08-2004 19:03									#234
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oh my, oh my i've discovered something!

i've just seen that herakleia IS in fact still connected to his road network!

if you look at this
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...753#post3225753
take a careful look at the mountain tile... the road leads up north! i didn't look enough and didn't see any road in the banana jungle, so i presumed he hadn't connected the "back door".

with 11HPs left at a defence of nearly 4 (3*(1.1+0.25)), he'll only need about 3 medinfs to put me in grave danger! i can always hope for a withdrawal, but some directions (towards athens) could be lethal.

damn, i hope i he doesn't have these units handy and ready!


speaking of available units: within the next turns he'll be able to buy the AI out of war. persia and egypt should be cheap, as they have lost so many units to his hoplites, and babylon (medinfs walking around) should be affordable too.

at least i can pump up my research, once he gets rid of my alliances

i'm also hoping for a persian war. ideally andy will get them in against me knossos may be tricky to hold, but at least i can try to generate some leaders

	18-08-2004 02:20									#235
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!!! BREAKING NEWS !!!

ROMAN ARMY LIBERATES HERAKLEIA!

after alexander, the greek leader did not surrender the city of herakleia to the roman cavalry, caesar sent them to take it by force. only a few brave men died, but herakleia fell and the locals gifted rome 19 chests of gold for their liberation of the evil greek republic!

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	18-08-2004 03:34									#236
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edit: solved!

Last edited by sabrewolf on 18-08-2004 at 03:42

	18-08-2004 03:42									#237
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meanwhile, on the other flank, the fully recovered 2nd army exited corinth (gifting it to our celtic friends for temporary control) and moved to the mountains south-east of thessalonica (orange line).

from there they have several options for the following years:

A) attack thessalonica from the safe mountains (dark blue line)
B) move to the mountain range north of thessalonica and pillage roads on the way (light blue line)
C) attack athens in a surprise attack (part of light blue line)

caesar hasn't yet decided on A or B and will command the troops to do whatever plan he thinks is most appropriate. currently, thessalonica is defended by rookie hoplites, so it may be worth trying to attack thessalonica.

should alexander chose to reinforce thessalonica, option B may be the better option (cutting off thessalonica from further reinforcements and then picking on them year by year or even attacking athens once every turn).

C is currently no serious option, except if B is chosen and while passing, athens should be defended by offensive units only (you never know what is going on in alexander's wierd republican mind)

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	18-08-2004 03:42									#238
	isolating greek outposts Remove this text

the legions in the north of greece were ordered to destroy the roads leading to ephesus and argos and thereby cutting of the source of stallions alexander will want for his emissaries.

now only argos can create horseback riders but that city isn't very productive because it's surrounded by desert, coast mountains and floodplains.

unfortunatly, the bablonian infantry were unsuccessful in removing the greek iron source when they were attacked by greek soldiers on the hills. instead, hammurabi is sending a settler and a spearman through dangerous territory to claim some land.... nobody knows why

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	18-08-2004 03:44									#239
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here is the score at 380ad.

compare it to the ones 3 turns ago... quite a momentum, uh? (35 for me, 5 for greece)

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	18-08-2004 03:51									#240
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although alexander had reinforced thessalonika with another band of hopilites, caesar saw that they were unprepared and not yet fortified. so he ordered the healthy army to engage.

and once again, rome was successful! the liberation of thessalonika came at a cost, as 6 of 19 divisions were severely wounded, but after defeating the unprepared veteran hoplites and the prepared untrained hoplites, thessalonika was finally rome's, giving caesar another 22 chests of gold to use!

this is the 5th greek city to be liberated by the roman army and our northern legionary can already spot very unhappy and greek people!

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