05-08-2004 18:39									#451
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Because the ruins is, or soon will be, entirely in our territory, this drastically lessens the chance of trolling a worm or of a worm spontaneously developing there. It did just happen, , but it's less likely than in fungus outside of any faction's border, in my experience.

The other question is: Troll with a spore launcher? If it uncovers another spore launcher, they duel, and we could lose a free garrison unit for it. But if it survives such, it becomes a fairly useful military unit for softening up a stack of enemies (Yang comes to mind). Nonetheless, the SL is likely to uncover a mindworm, not capture it, then spend it's time herding the mindworm towards a base with a garrison for destruction/re-capture attempt. This can be distracting and dangerous, even for Gaians. I reccomend trolling with a scout and using the SL as a garrison. If the scout dies, it's replaceable. A scout rover might be even better, and would be upgradeable should a landing force arrive on our shores.

In 10-20 turns, if we don't have social psych, we'll need to be turning away from ICS temporarily. SP's, Probes, and perhaps such a scout rover would be good builds. Probes disbanded for an SP are perfectly legitimate.

What SP? The WP would allow us to pre-form for restriction lifting. The HGP would be best though, allowing us to really ICS like mad. Since we have the space and time to spread out, rather than up, this reccomends learning biogenetics just to build the HGP, besides all it's other benefits. I don't think we should start an SP until we have already built a few probe teams though. Once we start, the AI will be inclined to start, and in this position, might finish before we could rush the project. 5-15 probes, then start.

The AI will be likely to trade social psych (no SP), but is more likely to actually have biogenetics. So we need to decide if we're going to steal or trade exclusively, before we approach a base.

	05-08-2004 20:30									#452
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I'm a big fan of both the HGP and the WP. If I can get either, I'm a happy ICSer. I rarely can get both at a reasonable cost (against a competent opponent). Let's discuss the benefits in the context of the Gaians:

WP:
We will have a decent number of formers, hence multiplying their effectiveness by 1.5 is pretty nice.
We're slow on tech, so the ability to get 4 nutrients early is very nice, and so is the ability to get started on boreholes some turns before restrictions come off.
We will want expensive terraforming, particularly boreholes, even more than most factions, since we don't make much energy

HGP:
If we get this early enough, it allows superior ICSing. Size 2 bases become stable with the addition of a garrison, until the second bureaucracy drone. If we will have many bureaucracy drones, the HGP will be less useful as it does not seem to have its normal effect when a super drone remains.

My opinion: favor the WP.

	05-08-2004 22:18									#453
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I lean heavily in favor of the HGP.

So how concerted an effort should we make? Do you all agree with the probe-disbanding strategy? Should we really stop ICSing?

I'm all for building the HGP. We will need to be very focused and quick about it with Morgan as a competetor. I always pretend to be working on the ME, then switch over when done. Not very sneaky, but it works sometimes. Also, it's good practice to start another SP of the same name before finishing the first. That way noone can 'see' that we're building an SP from the F5 screen or game announcements. I'll repeat though: We do not want to actually start the project until we are nearly ready to finish it with AAs, probes, cash. Probably 8 years on the inside.

	05-08-2004 22:21									#454
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It's really to close to call at this point. It depends on our situation just prior to completing the SP I would think. I say we start on the WP ASAP since we can always switch to the HGP later.

I often get the WP in my PBEM's and it's nice, but with ICSing, (something I'm just now trying) I perfer the HGP. To me, the WP is more useful for going vertical and the HGP is more useful for going horizontal.

edit: This game is all about research and I think we get more energy early (when we need it most) from the HGP. Let's get a count of how many borehole friendly bonus squares we have before we decide what to do.

Last edited by Net Warrior on 05-08-2004 at 22:26

	05-08-2004 22:31									#455
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Err...the probe-disbanding strategy? Do we still lose 1/2 of the minerals when disbanding probes?

	05-08-2004 22:32									#456
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quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior I say we start on the WP ASAP since we can always switch to the HGP later.

What do you say to my suggestion of not starting the project until we are ready to finish it in a turn or two with AAs, probes, or cash?

Cross-post! Ah yeah, we lose 1/2 minerals with probe-disbanding. If you've never tried it though, I highly reccomend it for slow-tech factions/games. It is definately 'worth it' if it means not letting Morgan just buy the SP ahead of us.

	05-08-2004 23:28									#457
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Yes, a cross post

The sooner we get started the more we accumulate. Your probe-disband trick should be sufficient to beat the AI to one of them. We don't really have a good SP base right now and I don't see one in the offing. We should get started ASAP and use every trick in the book besides. ....sadly, I really don't like our chances of getting a good SP. Of course start the Merchant Exchange for whatever deception it's worth. I just don't see any advantage in waiting compared to accumulating immediately. Maybe we'll get lucky and a good one will still be available in about 13-14 yrs when we get Ind Auto and reduce our mineral cost. We should try to time it so we complete it that same year.

	05-08-2004 23:36									#458
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Keep in mind that our whole empire's mineral output will be about 13 next turn. If we could focus all this on one base, we'd take 10 turns to make a SP (200 * .9 - 50 for our AA = 130 minerals we need). No one base can make more than 3, or 5 if we allow growth. The rest will come at 1/2 efficiency, so to complete a SP in 15 turns, we need to devote about 7 more minerals from other bases, which represents 2 or 3 other bases, if we have a base producing 5 minerals.

	06-08-2004 02:15									#459
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Ok, I just took a closer look and DoG seems like the best candidate base. In 2125 it will have 11 minerals and can switch production to Merchant Exchange. When it grows in 2129 it will have 20 minerals and 5 per turn from there on. In 15 turns from now, 2139, it will have 75 minerals. This is approximately when we get to switch to Wealth SE and the cost of the SP goes from 200 to 180. Subtract the AA and the cost is 130. Subtract our 75 and we’ll need 55 minerals to complete the SP next turn.

CT, I think I’m basically re-stating what you just said but when you look at it this way, all we’ll need is a combination of EC’s and disbands that is not totally out of reach. Maybe we’ll find another AA or get a windfall of EC’s with a pod pop. Just one probe brings the total needed down to 42. With a little luck we’ll make it.

Anyway, I don’t see how waiting improves our position.

	06-08-2004 02:37									#460
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Waiting serves 3 purposes (o.k., 5 purposes):

1. Time to build a rec commons or other useful infrastructure (not that this applies to us at the moment, but in general, why not make the SP base as efficient as possible before starting?) The time is not wasted. It allows us to build probes for disbanding in other bases to fight off the chance that someone else will see our plan and rush the project.

2. If things go sour, the SP base has a few more turns to make shorter production runs and switches without major penalty.

3. Surprise. If we start and finish the WP or HGP in 2 turns or so, it's really unlikely that the enemy will be able to scramble to beat us to the punch. This is especially true after infiltration.

4. As I said before, the starting of an SP triggers the AI to start some SPs. With Yang and Zak, I fear they would finish the projects before us, let alone the other humans. Since no other faction has started, it would be suicidal for us to start what we cannot finish.

5. The loss of minerals by not starting immediately is negligable compared to the advantages above, especially for the cheaper early projects, which can be built in a single turn if we are lucky/smart about it.

IMO, having a base actually just build a project from scratch is asking for trouble against experienced PBEMers. It must be rushed, and decisively. There is some chance that we could have ours hanging in the wind if other factions jump the gun. Any of the early projects are worth their weight in gold. But let's not chance it. Let's attack it.

It's kinda pathetic how few minerals we are producing (thanks for the maths, both of you). Nonetheless, 15 turns spent building probes will guarantee us one of the early projects. The only bad part is that this makes us a target

	06-08-2004 02:38									#461
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Some corrections/notes are in order:

quote: Originally posted by Net Warrior Ok, I just took a closer look and DoG seems like the best candidate base. In 2125 it will have 11 minerals and can switch production to Merchant Exchange. When it grows in 2129 it will have 20 minerals

If it has 11 minerals in 2125, and is making 3/turn, it should have 22 in 2129, accounting for losing 1 in 2125 when switching.

quote: and 5 per turn from there on. In 15 turns from now, 2139, it will have 75 minerals.

72, but close enough

quote: This is approximately when we get to switch to Wealth SE and the cost of the SP goes from 200 to 180.

If we have Wealth in 15 years (which seems somewhat optimistic), the cost will go from 180 to 160. Remember, we're already running planned.

quote: Subtract the AA and the cost is 130. Subtract our 75 and we’ll need 55 minerals to complete the SP next turn.

160 - AA = 110
110 - 72 accumulated = 38
38 - 5 that turn = 33
Each probe disbanded at +1 industry yields 13 minerals, at a cost of 27. Each probe gimp (probe-1-1) yields 9 minerals, at a cost of 18. In any case, we have an effective cost of 66 imported minerals/132 energy.

quote: CT, I think I’m basically re-stating what you just said but when you look at it this way, all we’ll need is a combination of EC’s and disbands that is not totally out of reach. Maybe we’ll find another AA or get a windfall of EC’s with a pod pop. Just one probe brings the total needed down to 42. With a little luck we’ll make it. Anyway, I don’t see how waiting improves our position.

If we wait, we know whether or not we'll find an AA or energy credits. Of course, the project might be built by then.

	06-08-2004 02:41									#462
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quote: Originally posted by smacksim It's kinda pathetic how few minerals we are producing (thanks for the maths, both of you). Nonetheless, 15 turns spent building probes will guarantee us one of the early projects. The only bad part is that this makes us a target

I like being a target

	06-08-2004 03:10									#463
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OOPs, I forgot about Planned . So that reduces the cost by another 20 EC! Better yet.

	06-08-2004 17:11									#464
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I think surprise building the SP is best, since it is very likely that Morgan will get most of SPs anyway, and seeing that we are building a particular SP can alarm them. BTW smacksim stated excellent arguments for that. Plan sounds well . For which SP, both sound nice and can fit well. Negating WP to others will serve well, and increase our development speed significantly. HGP. on the other hand would give us ICS capability and negate it for Morgan, damaging its ICS strategy significantly. Which ever we choose is fine, but I suggest some trickery about it if possible, to hide the true nature of the project we are building. Also, we could borrow money from AIs, if we investigate east in future, which is not likely for now.

	07-08-2004 07:45									#465
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Ok, the turn is in and I just took a fast look. The former in DoG should stay put to heal afer killing the MW and gaining us 10 EC's. Complete the scout there for defence + police in 5 turns. Move the spore launcher to GL...I still can't believe the base is undefended. Build new base, Lily of the Valley, and build a scout there for defence. Leave slider at 50-50 and research in 7 but down to 6 when solar panel comes on line next year and DoG grows in 5th year. Great turn advantage with the new base! Let's prepare the next base site and have the base planted on it's 2nd move. Rush CP at FT in 2 turns (I believe). We're earning 6 EC's per turn now. Foil should make landfall next turn. Only the foil/rover, and the MW will do all the exploring for now.

Last edited by Net Warrior on 07-08-2004 at 07:53

	07-08-2004 22:36									#466
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Sorry about delays in creating the thread. Poly went down almost immediately after I posted the turn, and I was busy most of the day. I will make some screenshots now. So far - this are the issues -> scout patrol will be finished in #5 base, start former now? I hope that MW won't appear and destroy the base in single turn when it will be undefended, since it is unbelievable that we have that bad luck. Also, foil/rover should reach land -> I beleive only one movement point will be enough -> if we found a pod should we use pop it and retreat in case the pop produces a MW? Also, if one MV point remains, what to do with foil.

	07-08-2004 22:43									#467
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DoG and LoV finish production of scout patrols. I believe we could produce CPs at both, but what do you think? I think CT calculated our first SE limit as 9. Hurry CP at FT as per suggestion of Net Warrior. Also, former in DoG will be free for duty, so should we continue to build the road as we planned? We may need to plan base sites #7 and #8.

	07-08-2004 23:06									#468
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MW path - should we pop the pod or not? In case we do, it would be wise th change production in VS before it - should I change it to PT or NN in that case? Hurried PT would be better than a NN I think (even as NN cost much more), but I want to hear what you think.

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	07-08-2004 23:15									#469
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Suggested route for our brave Gaian sailors, who will be the first to embark on shores of another continent (if we put aside that all continents of human factions are part of a supercontinet). Should we leave the foil nearby for a turn or two for support in case rover needs to be evacuated, or should we immediately pursue NE path of exploration/return?

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	07-08-2004 23:22									#470
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And our charming homeland, core of Gaian Union
to summarize:
*decide about actions of MW
*decide about policy of exploration with the Unity Foil
*production of DoG and LoV

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	08-08-2004 03:10									#471
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Illuminatus: That was a very clear and nice turn report. Thanks. However, many of the decisions you propose discussing have been previously decided. If we want to change from those decisions, let's at least start where we left off...

The Mindworm path suggested by Chaos Theory last turn or two turns ago, isn't listed. It's move-move-move (all in fungus), then move-pop pod on the following turn, which leaves 1/3 movement for the mindworm. That's first choice. second choice is to pop immediately with no movement left.

The poll for what to produce at each base should be cited, as it applied to 'When the bases finish their current builds'. I agreed with that format. Let's stick to our answers from that, or at least argue for/against the majority opinion (and state it) It even referenced the new bases builds.

As to the foil and rover: drop off the rover. If it's on a pod, that's great. If it pops a worm, try to capture. If fail, should we kill the worm anyways? That was never answered. If the rover lands next to a non-rocky pod, end it's turn so it can pop with a move left over. If lands next to a rocky pod, ignore the pod (too risky, IMO, with a lone rover).

About the foil: Can we estimate how long it will take the foil to meet up with our mindworm? I had suggested in the Gaia thread that the Mindworm be ferried to another continent, with the North being the obvious candidate. I don't think this has been thoroughly discussed though. Let me make a list of things to decide:

• Ferry the mindworm to another continent? Which one?
  
• Move the foil to intercept our mindworm as fast as possible, or explore along the way, leaving the mindworm some time to pop pods at home as it heads north?
  
• Follow the votes from the poll on 'What to build at X base', or re-decide each turn? (I say, make a poll every 3-7 turns to update our choices)
  

	08-08-2004 10:21									#472
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Our bureaucracy limit at +2 effic is 9 bases. At +0, it's just 6.

If we find a coastal rocky pod, we can disembark the rover on it, consuming just a single movement point.

If the rover finds one mindworm and fails to capture, kill it. If it finds more than one, try to capture each; if all fail, escape to the foil.

If the foil finds the shore with movement remaining, after making sure the rover doesn't need to reboard, head north.

	08-08-2004 16:04									#473
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Hmmm, is this the route suggested?

Fine route, but the problem is that things do not appear to be predecided in planning threads, and poll with three votes hardly seemed representative. Also, unity foil cannot return so fast for the MW, so question will be, what to do with the MW in future?
Former moving north of DoG is fine, I guess, but what will we do in 2127 with two formers which finish solar collectors? Perhaps it is time to seed forests, or to move east and build road which will connect base #6?
Also, poll suggests producing an extra colony pod, while CP for base #6 is being produced in FT? We would go over the b limit according to the poll results. That still leaves the question what to produce in bases. I think I will go and make a new poll for base production. I think it is better to decide about future movement of MW and UF from the presend of next turn -> if we find a fungal pathway in landbridge to the north (which does exist), it would be faster for MW to reach Hive, than to wait and use UF to move it north. We should wait for next turn to decide.
So we need to verify what to build in all bases again, since poll results would indicate that we should produce more CPs than needed -> also, should we go and accumulate PTs for SP, or go and expand till the second B-limit with the police? We agreed on the MW path then (follow CTs path), and how to manage Unity Rover.

Last edited by Illuminatus on 08-08-2004 at 16:31

	08-08-2004 18:31									#474
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That's all good, except if we want the foil/ferry to return, which I'm of the impression, we do. Like I said though, we may have 1-3 extra turns with the foil if we allow the mw to explore/pop fully. This suggests using the foil as safety for the rover. I don't see much advantage in exploring with the foil (your loop back to base route) instead. We won't want to pop pods, and the foil is more useful as a ferry for the MW and then a probe team or two.

If you see this before the poll, you need to edit it to allow multiple votes. Also, we must be satisfied with 3-5 total votes. That's all we have active!

As to the B-drone limit: We don't want to switch out of planned, for the simple reason that it costs so much. My impression is that no-one wants to plant b-drone bases without some way to quell the drones. Thus, no more CP's until rec-commons in our core bases. This might be timed nicely with our bases getting to 3 population (1 doctor).

Location for base 6 could be in the flats taking advantage of the nut+min bonuses, making it a great SP or CP base later. What do you think?

	08-08-2004 18:40									#475
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I though we agreed about base #6 being on original base site #3 base. Either is fine with me. So we agreed that we won't produce any more CPs either (except the current one in FT). I think we are better plotting a diagonal course to future site of MW, roughly three of four tilea bove, but I wait till the turn is in, beofre we start plotting the course.

	08-08-2004 22:38									#476
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I think we are agreed r/e base 6 being on the original base 3 site. However, I'm proposing that we just consider going to the Uranium Flats instead. I don't think it's really any better, and there are many trade-offs. But if we're not going to be ICSing for another 10-20 turns, it's worth considering from the energy/production standpoint. I think if we do the math we'll show it's about equal over 20 turns (the extra turns to get there), but will pay for itself after that. The problem is that it's far away, hard to defend, and 'wastes' several turns that could be productive. Overall, I favor the original site, but thought that this should be looked at as an option.

-S

	09-08-2004 21:38									#477
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Do I understand the way b-drone’s work? My understanding is that when you get an in-game message that you are about to exceed the b-drone limit, then if you proceed, one of your bases will get a b-drone. So for the Gaians in this game (where out limit is 9) we’d get 1 b-drone when we have 10 bases, a 2nd b-drone when we have 19 bases, a 3rd for the 28th base, etc.

If this is correct then by NOT exceeding the b-drone limit, we sacrifice the benefits of the bases 11-18 just to avoid 1 crippled base. If this is correct then I vote to just keep building CP’s until we run out of room. Our best source of new energy with this faction is with new bases so let’s keep building them.

	09-08-2004 21:41									#478
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A b-drone is created for every base beyond the limit.

Our Eff running Planned is Zero == 6 bases.

We have only Doctors to handle extra drones.

	09-08-2004 21:43									#479
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Nono, you get a b-drone for each base that exceeds the limit if I am correct. I don't think it wouldn't be important at all if it works the way you decribe.
edit: xpost with smacksim

	09-08-2004 21:52									#480
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At 6 bases we have 0 bdrones per base (0 total)
At 12 bases we have 1 bdrone per base (12 total)

That means that, on average, we gain bdrones in 2 bases for each base we found after the 6th. Exactly which bases get them is a function of the global base list, which could not be put into a turn simulator at this point.