25-08-2004 18:53									#271
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Yup.

But it is interesting to see the reactons of American voters discussing the issue. It sure brings much light to my poli-sci courses

	25-08-2004 18:56									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I completely agree with the Mickey Kaus quote. That smear campaign would be nothing if Kerry wasn't so damn empty. Kerry should be campaigning on the grounds of "I'm not George Bush" (who has a discernable, and highly dislikeable personality), instead of lying or exagerating about things that could be easily blown away.

We don't know if he has hyped anything regarding his medals- so I don't see why people now assume he did.

On his record- he has the problem all senators running for prez. do: they have no executive record to claim as their own-only legislative record. I see people saying Kerry is running from his senate record but then, the layman wouold not understand it much, or care right now. I mean, GWB barely ran with his "record in texas", and he was a two term governor of one of the biggest states in the country (well, that and the point the Governor of texas is a weak post relative to other governors).

	25-08-2004 18:58									#273
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Not if Kerry keeps acting hysterical about it.

The republican convetion and its fall-out will suck the media oxygen to such an extent this story will lose much of its potency.

	25-08-2004 18:59									#274
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We don't know if he has hyped anything regarding his medals- so I don't see why people now assume he did.

He is a politician. He saw his war record as an advantage, and he spun it and exaggerated it to get support. That's an ordinary move.

That he used his war record as one of his main electoral arguments (if not the main one) shows that he overuses it as a political resource. This always means spin, and half-truths.

	25-08-2004 19:12									#275
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3 PHs in four months, a silver star, and a bronze star in four months and we let this guy go home. He should have single handedly won the war. Probobly have 4 medals of honor after a full tour.

The fact that there are not war monuments to him (except in Vietnam of course) all over the place is proof he exaggerated. Those kinds of medals simply are not awarded like that. Unless you gamed the system.

	25-08-2004 19:20									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon This will all have died out in 2 weeks.

Don't be so sure. SBV have already planned dribs and drabs advertising to continue in September and October. They are not going to let it die.

To the extent it is ignored by media may be a different matter.

	25-08-2004 20:54									#277
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quote: Not if Kerry keeps acting hysterical about it.

He hasn't. He's made it clear that he's pissed off, and that is what anyone would expect.

These clowns did it too early. Their case is so shaky that it will be effectively destroyed in the coming weeks, and that will make Bush look bad. It would have been over already if the media had any spine. But they seem to think that both sides of a debate should get a fair hearing all the time, instead of only when one side isn't obviously full of ****, which is the case here (and yes, it's the anti-Kerry group that is FOS).

	25-08-2004 20:55									#278
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Make no mistake, I would rather see Bush elected. Then the rest of the world will realize that it has to band together to Gulliverize the US. When that's finished, common sense can prevail again.

	25-08-2004 20:58									#279
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Yeah, I am sure that is exactly what will happen

	25-08-2004 21:03									#280
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/25/p...ND-SWIF.html?hp

quote: Bush Campaign's Top Outside Lawyer Resigns By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: August 25, 2004 WASHINGTON -- An election lawyer for President Bush who also has been advising a veterans group running TV ads against Democrat John Kerry resigned Wednesday from Bush's campaign. "I cannot begin to express my sadness that my legal representations have become a distraction from the critical issues at hand in this election," Benjamin Ginsberg wrote in a resignation letter to Bush released by the campaign. "I feel I cannot let that continue, so I have decided to resign as national counsel to your campaign to ensure that the giving of legal advice to decorated military veterans, which was entirely within the boundaries of the law, doesn't distract from the real issues upon which you and the country should be focusing." Ginsberg's acknowledgment Tuesday evening that he was providing legal advice to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth marked the second time in days that an individual associated with the Bush-Cheney campaign had been connected to the group, which Kerry accuses of being a front for the Republican incumbent's re-election effort. The Bush campaign and the veterans' group have said repeatedly that there is no coordination, and the campaign repeated that statement Tuesday. Lawyers on the Democratic side are also representing both the campaign or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race at the same time. Ginsberg's dual role has drawn attention because the Swift Boat Veterans group ran an ad accusing Kerry of exaggerating his Vietnam War record, an issue that has dominated the campaign since early August. Kerry has fired back by accusing Bush of using the group as a front to run a smear campaign for him. Democrats have jumped on any tie, even if legal, to back up that claim.

Now only if top adivsers to the Bush campaign stop advsing these guys, these silly rumors of collusion will go away.

	25-08-2004 21:05									#281
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quote: Yeah, I am sure that is exactly what will happen

Why do you think so many generals and former diplomats have come out in support of Kerry? They know that the US is most effective at getting its own way by means of traditional diplomacy. Clinton was a master at that - something he gets too little credit for.

They aren't socialists, communists, liberal internationalists or people who want the US to prostrate itself before the world. They seem to me to be people who wish to preserve and enhance American influence in the world, and they are smart enough to know that Bush is doing his best to destroy it.

	25-08-2004 21:07									#282
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Ginsberg had to be the fall guy. Its surprising that likewise Joe Sandler who represents DNC and Moveon.org is not likewsie called to resign.

Realistically legal advice is required in order to understand the ramifications of the 527 code and what can and can not be said. Shame that both parties are complicit in offering that advice to the 527's as they appear to have sown up the few lawyers truly in the know wrt to the code.

We'll see if Sandler is called on the carpet. My guess is not.

	25-08-2004 21:08									#283
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what did clinton try to get from others?

maybe he could hvae been a master, but I never saw him convince the world to go a way it didn't want to go

Jon Miller

	25-08-2004 21:09									#284
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Advising the DNC and a 527 is slightly (slightly) different from advising a 527 and the actual campaign of a candidate. While the DNC obviously is pro-Kerry, they don;t run his campaign, or any other campaign directly.

	25-08-2004 21:09									#285
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And buried at the tail end of the story...

quote: Lawyers on the Democratic side are also representing both the campaign or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race at the same time

I love how people are pointing fingers, trying to take the moral high ground, when they are doing the exact same thing...

I guess it's too much to ask for this campaign to be fought on the "issues"... but nah, we are talking about the good ole USA here

	25-08-2004 21:09									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Make no mistake, I would rather see Bush elected. Then the rest of the world will realize that it has to band together to Gulliverize the US. When that's finished, common sense can prevail again.

Way I see it, it's a no lose proposition for a US hater such as yourself.

	25-08-2004 21:13									#287
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I would say that those Gernals support him because they are retired with political aspirations, were already allied to Kerry because of party affiliation, and they would have come to the defense of ANY democtratic candidate. They are not "socialists, communists, liberal internationalists," they are loyal democrats.

The Republicans have a much larger and more impressive array of Generals an Admirals. I actually trust them more because they are not glory hounds like Clarke, and stay relatively low on the radar. They don't come to the aid of the anti-kerry vets because unlike Kerry's boys they are not a part of Bush's campaign. They are independant, with funding from other independant Republicans which does not equal Bush's campaign.

And once again, the anti-kerry guys are not even all republican! They just don't like Kerry, while all Kerry's Gernerals are partisan democrat.

	25-08-2004 21:20									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Guardian Well, you have to realize how these B-52s operated at the time. Unlike modern air campaigns, these were not surgical strikes aimed at specific targets. It was actually more like the carpet bombings of WW II, only with tremendously increased firepower. The B-52s flew in groups, targeted "boxes" of a couple of square kilometers at a time and pretty much obliterated everything within that box. The thing is, when you wreak havoc on such a grand scale, it does tend to hurt civilians no matter what your policy is on the matter.

Sihanouk said at the time that there were no Cambodians in the border enclaves we were attacking. There were no complaints by Cambodia, or for that matter by North Vietnam, that a single civilian was killed.

Not one.

	25-08-2004 21:23									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sihanouk said at the time that there were no Cambodians in the border enclaves we were attacking. There were no complaints by Cambodia, or for that matter by North Vietnam, that a single civilian was killed. Not one.

Riiight

	25-08-2004 21:26									#290
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Advising the DNC and a 527 is slightly (slightly) different from advising a 527 and the actual campaign of a candidate. While the DNC obviously is pro-Kerry, they don;t run his campaign, or any other campaign directly.

According to the article there are individuals indeed representing the campaign or party and outside organizations. My guess is Sandlers one of them.

Gotta love the double standard both of the DNC and its media tool, especially when the instance its applied to is to make sure the law isn't actually broken.

	25-08-2004 21:31									#291
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Having read this thread and its predecessor on and off I am left with only one thought - the US gets the President it deserves. Makes me rather glad not to live in the US if this is all that goes on for one year in every four.

You see to think Kerry will be elected. This Swiftboat controversy has more than erased his post-convention bounce. The issue is doubt.

What this thread also shows is the complete dishonesty of the antiwar types both from Vietnam and now.

	25-08-2004 21:39									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe According to the article there are individuals indeed representing the campaign or party and outside organizations. My guess is Sandlers one of them. Gotta love the double standard both of the DNC and its media tool, especially when the instance its applied to is to make sure the law isn't actually broken.

If a double standard existed, they would not have mentioned that in the firt place- earlier in this thread people said Kerry brought this "scandal" on himself by bringing attention to his war record- well, as the NYTimes itself states, Bush and his people have broght themselves into the limelight, and thus have been forced to deal with it. Call it cosmic Karma.

	25-08-2004 21:40									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor He is a politician. He saw his war record as an advantage, and he spun it and exaggerated it to get support. That's an ordinary move. That he used his war record as one of his main electoral arguments (if not the main one) shows that he overuses it as a political resource. This always means spin, and half-truths.

Siffor, I think you are neglecting Kerry's role after he returned from Vietnam and began to attack not only the war, but his brethern. He was the most prominent member of the Vietnam Veterans Against war. He even said that he committed war crimes.

One cannot both say that he is a war hero and an antiwar hero.

From a political point of view, it is interesting that he got thru the Democrat primaries without this conflict being raised and vetted.

	25-08-2004 21:42									#294
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon He hasn't. He's made it clear that he's pissed off, and that is what anyone would expect. These clowns did it too early. Their case is so shaky that it will be effectively destroyed in the coming weeks, and that will make Bush look bad. It would have been over already if the media had any spine. But they seem to think that both sides of a debate should get a fair hearing all the time, instead of only when one side isn't obviously full of ****, which is the case here (and yes, it's the anti-Kerry group that is FOS).

Agathon, you obviously do not understand the issues.

	25-08-2004 21:45									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Why do you think so many generals and former diplomats have come out in support of Kerry? They know that the US is most effective at getting its own way by means of traditional diplomacy. Clinton was a master at that - something he gets too little credit for. They aren't socialists, communists, liberal internationalists or people who want the US to prostrate itself before the world. They seem to me to be people who wish to preserve and enhance American influence in the world, and they are smart enough to know that Bush is doing his best to destroy it.

Why of course, "Weakness, vaccillation, procrastination, flip-floping, and insincerity is strength!"

	25-08-2004 21:46									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And buried at the tail end of the story... I love how people are pointing fingers, trying to take the moral high ground, when they are doing the exact same thing... I guess it's too much to ask for this campaign to be fought on the "issues"... but nah, we are talking about the good ole USA here

Issues?

Character is the issue.

	25-08-2004 21:48									#297
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Riiight

GePap, once more you display a studied ignorance. If you want an exact quote of what Sihanouk said, I will provide it.

	25-08-2004 21:51									#298
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How in the world does what a tinpot aristocrat's public version of events have to do with what was actually going on?

-arrian

	25-08-2004 21:52									#299
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quote: Way I see it, it's a no lose proposition for a US hater such as yourself.

We just want you to behave and play nicely with others.

quote: Agathon, you obviously do not understand the issues.

*picks self up off floor



*wheezes

	25-08-2004 21:54									#300
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quote: Originally posted by GePap If a double standard existed, they would not have mentioned that in the firt place- earlier in this thread people said Kerry brought this "scandal" on himself by bringing attention to his war record- well, as the NYTimes itself states, Bush and his people have broght themselves into the limelight, and thus have been forced to deal with it. Call it cosmic Karma.

Excuse me, but it was the SBV who approached Ginsberg for advice on legal issue to proceed w/o entaglement into issues of legality wrt 527. To imply that the Bush team orchestrated their efforts is disingenuous. Do ties exist, yes of necessity.

Unlike the premeditated ties of moveon.org, DNC, and team Kerry.