25-08-2004 10:59									#241
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This just in: Kerry has been phoning individual Swift-Boaters

quote: XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUE AUG 24, 2004 11:09:31 ET XXXXX KERRY PHONES SWIFT BOAT FOES **World Exclusive** Dem presidential hopeful John Kerry personally phoned anti-Kerry swift boat vets, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. Kerry reached out to Robert "Friar Tuck" Brant Cdr., USN (RET) Sunday night, just hours after former Sen. Bob Dole publicly challenged Kerry to apologize to veterans. Brant was skipper of the #96 and # 36 boat and spent time with Kerry in An Thoi. Kerry and Brant slept in the same quarters, and Brant used to put Kerry back to bed at night when Kerry was sleepwalking. Brant received a call from Kerry at his home in Virginia while he was watching the Olympics on TV. The call lasted 10 minutes, sources tell DRUDGE. KERRY: "Why are all these swift boat guys opposed to me?" BRANT: "You should know what you said when you came back, the impact it had on the young sailors and how it was disrespectful of our guys that were killed over there." [Brant had two men killed in battle.] KERRY: "When we dedicated swift boat one in '92, I said to all the swift guys that I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans." Kerry then asked if he could meet Brant ["You were one of the best"] -- man to man -- face to face. Brant declined the invite, explaining that Kerry was obviously not prepared to correct the record on exactly what happened during Vietnam and what happened when Kerry came back. Developing... ----------------------------------------------------------- Filed By Matt Drudge Reports are moved when circumstances warrant http://www.drudgereport.com for updates (c)DRUDGE REPORT 2004 Not for reproduction without permission of the author

"I wasn't talking about the swifties, I was talking about all the rest of the veterans."

Yeah. That makes it all better.

	25-08-2004 11:13									#242
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what did he say?

Jon Miller

	25-08-2004 11:19									#243
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His testimony in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee of what he heard in the Winter Soldier investigation, I presume.

quote: Yeah. That makes it all better.

So he had his foot in his mouth. That certainly never happens to Dear Leader.

	25-08-2004 11:22									#244
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link?

JM

	25-08-2004 11:25									#245
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http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/hist...yTestimony.html

	25-08-2004 11:39									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo His testimony in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee of what he heard in the Winter Soldier investigation, I presume. quote: Yeah. That makes it all better. So he had his foot in his mouth. That certainly never happens to Dear Leader.

It shows his mindset hasn't changed in the intervening decades.

	25-08-2004 11:41									#247
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No, it shows that his foot was in his mouth.

	25-08-2004 11:44									#248
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It is quite the disconnect.

1972... Vietnam is bad, all bad. We are like Ghengis Khan.

2004... Vote for me, I'm a war hero!

	25-08-2004 11:47									#249
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Seriously, in what drug induced fantasy would someone ever think they could pull that off?

	25-08-2004 11:48									#250
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I'm with Mike the Brit. This is all just too much.

	25-08-2004 12:27									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I find it remarkable that the Republicans would nominate Bush in the first place: a baby-raper. They don't really have a clue.

Ramo, your comparison would be apt if Bush were both a convicted baby-raper ala Michael Jackson and the Republicans simulataneously promoted him as a boy scout leader, a man with whom you could trust your children.

	25-08-2004 13:50									#252
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quote: Originally posted by rah SO my whole problem with this is not what happened, since I really don't care. He served his country and came home alive. That's enough for me. BUT, it does make me question his decision making abilities if he could be convinced that Pushing the WAR HERO thing was a good idea.

It actually makes me question something else:
His balls and his willingness to say something that might displease people.

This campaign seems to be completely devoid of platforms because Kerry refuses to put daring ideas on the table, in order not to alienate any undecided voter. Kerry emphasized on the one aspect of his personality that should make everybody like him (the war hero thing).

It was a stupid move, and I think it is the greatest proof of the "flip-flopping" allegations.

	25-08-2004 14:10									#253
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quote: As WorldNetDaily reported, Galanti appears in a new television ad by Swift Boat Veterans for the Truth, a group of 254 vets who served with Kerry(...)

Ahem... (*cough*) According to what I've heard, about 250 of these guys did not "serve with Kerry" and a good lot of them were in fact not even anywhere near him at the time.

Also, I find it somewhat interesting that they somehow mysteriously keep failing to document their "truths"...

If the truth is so fundamentally different from what Kerry's been saying and they're 254 against 1, you'd think they'd be able to actually prove some of their claims...

As for the allegations of Kerry being a traitor because he spoke up against the way the Vietnam war was being fought... well, excuse me, but I was under the impression that the US was supposed to be a democracy with freedom of speech as one of its' core values. Alas, this does not seem to be the case anymore.

	25-08-2004 14:13									#254
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Cambodia was not our ally when the bombing began. Cambodia was nuetral, but unable to keep the VC and NVA from using their territory. The bombing began before the U.S. had Sianook overthrown and replaced with Lon Nol. Then we began bombing the crap out of Cambodia, killing about half a million people, and driving hundreds of thousands more into the cities. It sapped the country's able to cope and left the country side open for the KR to recruit organize and overthrow the military dictatorship. And then it all went to hell.

Actually Sianhouk ever enamored of playing both sides was wringing as much military (financial) aid from the Americans (but not allowing them to operate in Cambodia), while simultaneously making deals with the NVA. By the time of the incursion (it really wasn't an invasion is we didn't penetrate very far into the country and never planned to) communist supplies were landing in Pnom Penh on boats and being delivered by truck in convoys to the Parrot's beak area (along the border between Vietnam and Cambodia near Saigon). The entire border area for miles inland (almost one third of Cambodia) was under the control of the NVA and / or its local allies (later to become the Khmer Rouge).

We did not have Sianhouk replaced according to every account I have read, but in fact greenlighted a coup by military officers who were disgusted by him for surrendering 1/3 of their country to North Vietnam while contiuing to kiss their ass. I don't blame them, or the U.S. government for their feelings or actions.

As for the bombing, I find the casualty numbers stated on this thread (5-600,000 KIA) hard to believe given the lack of metropolitan areas in the area of operation. We didn't kill nearly that many in North Vietnam which was more urban and bombed on and off for many more years. I imagine that the numbers are estimates and include people displaced / killed by the military actions of the Cambodian government forces, NVA, U.S., ARVN and Khmer Rouge over the years.

The Cambodian bombing was aimed at interdicting the Ho Chi Minh "trail" which in fact as an ever expanding swath of territory which was made up of numerous roads, trails bases and supply depots. As the "trail" expanded the indiginous population was forced away by the NVA for security reasons, as they couldn't allow anyone to monitor activity on the trail for fear of their convoys being targeted by bombers. Aside from this, they also saw no advantage to allowing witnesses to the fact that they were operating on a huge scale in a neutral country.

	25-08-2004 14:34									#255
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Just a small point about the Bronze Star incident, the AAR focuses solely on Kerry's boat and almost totally ignores the actions of the other Swiftboats. This has lead Thurlow and the other boat commanders who where there to conclude that Kerry wrote the AAR.

As to Rassmann's rendition of the story, he said that all boats initially fled. In fact, all stayed to help the crippled and sinking #3 boat -- all but one: Kerry fled. Rassmann's account looks like it was written by Kerry or a Kerry associate to be consistent with his AAR.

Therefore, when you hear that the AARs or the Medal citations which quoted from them are consistent with Kerry's version of events, you have to also understand that Kerry himself wrote the AARs.

	25-08-2004 14:37									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Guardian As for the allegations of Kerry being a traitor because he spoke up against the way the Vietnam war was being fought... well, excuse me, but I was under the impression that the US was supposed to be a democracy with freedom of speech as one of its' core values. Alas, this does not seem to be the case anymore.

Guardian, why of course his testimony was privileged. But his statements still were damaging to the US and helped the enemy primarily because they were laced with half truths and outright lies.

	25-08-2004 14:42									#257
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The raids were flown by B-52 bombers which, it is important to note at the outset, fly at an altitude too high to be observed from the ground and carry immense tonnages of high explosive: they give no warning of approach and are incapable of accuracy or discrimination because of both their altitude and the mass of their shells. Between 18 March 1969 and May 1970, 3,630 such raids were flown across the Cambodian frontier. The bombing campaign began as it was to go on - with full knowledge of its effect on civilians, and with flagrant deceit by Mr Kissinger in this precise respect. ......

When I divide 600,000 (the supposed number of people killed by the U.S. bombing) by 3,630 (the number of raids during the secret bombing campaign) I get 165 and some change. Are you saying that each raid killed 165 civilians on average? Even if each raid killed 1/10th of that I'd be shocked. The total number killed would amount to 8.5% of the population of Cambodia in 1975, a country which has 181,035 square kilometers. That must have been some incredibly (in)accurate bombing.

Considering that the bombing was aimed at the Ho Chi Minh trail, and no one here has made a case that maximizing the total number of civilian casualties was U.S. policy I think there is something very wrong with these numbers.

	25-08-2004 14:56									#258
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, but you miss the fact that protests widened after Cambodia and the Pentagon Papers- the anti-war movement always opposed Nixon in Vietnam, and they GOT STRONGER thanks to Nixon's actions.

The anti-war movement was not much of a force politically during Nixon's presidency. It had more of an impact in 1968 frankly. You wouldn't know this from the press coverage of the time, or from much of the history written since that time which was colored by that press coverage. But Nixon the war monger whipped McGovern the peace candidate's ass in 1972, in part I think to a backlash against the radicalism of the peace movement and the focus on that movement by the press. The movement peaked in 1970 on college campuses, but even there it was a minority movement. Many people were vaguely supportive, many weren't and few were activists.

	25-08-2004 15:06									#259
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The center of the "peace" movement was the SDS. That movement fractured in '69-'70, with one branch becoming the Weather underground and the other traditional communists. Neither had much appeal to the typical middle class college student as had the SDS.

	25-08-2004 15:53									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It actually makes me question something else: His balls and his willingness to say something that might displease people. This campaign seems to be completely devoid of platforms because Kerry refuses to put daring ideas on the table, in order not to alienate any undecided voter. Kerry emphasized on the one aspect of his personality that should make everybody like him (the war hero thing). It was a stupid move, and I think it is the greatest proof of the "flip-flopping" allegations.

	25-08-2004 16:18									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander When I divide 600,000 (the supposed number of people killed by the U.S. bombing) by 3,630 (the number of raids during the secret bombing campaign) I get 165 and some change. Are you saying that each raid killed 165 civilians on average? Even if each raid killed 1/10th of that I'd be shocked. The total number killed would amount to 8.5% of the population of Cambodia in 1975, a country which has 181,035 square kilometers. That must have been some incredibly (in)accurate bombing. Considering that the bombing was aimed at the Ho Chi Minh trail, and no one here has made a case that maximizing the total number of civilian casualties was U.S. policy I think there is something very wrong with these numbers.

Well, you have to realize how these B-52s operated at the time.

Unlike modern air campaigns, these were not surgical strikes aimed at specific targets. It was actually more like the carpet bombings of WW II, only with tremendously increased firepower. The B-52s flew in groups, targeted "boxes" of a couple of square kilometers at a time and pretty much obliterated everything within that box.

The thing is, when you wreak havoc on such a grand scale, it does tend to hurt civilians no matter what your policy is on the matter.

	25-08-2004 16:22									#262
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Jesus, I go away for two days and you guys manage to not only kill the second thread, but also to get this one halfway to 500? Impressive...

	25-08-2004 16:33									#263
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However, we were not exactly bombing population centers either. We were bombing some of the most rural areas of the country. Not only that, for the most part we were bombing the same places over again.

Kerry was a reserve officer in the Navy at the time, and thus everything intellectual he produced, to include speech, is owned by the US government. Treason is the exact word to explain what he did, in a more civilized time he would have been executed.

And while you CAN get PH's for any wound, as Kerry has proven, it is a fact that you don't and shouldn't. And no PH's cannot be given for freindly fire unless it is during combat. The only reason why the instruction is vague is because what would be the criteria for a "serious" wound? That is why the awards has review for level headed responsible people to look it over. In Vietnam Kerry knew he would be the defacto review, and abused the power. Again, not damning but definetly dishonest, especailly for an award which is sacred to the fold.

	25-08-2004 16:49									#264
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander As for the bombing, I find the casualty numbers stated on this thread (5-600,000 KIA) hard to believe given the lack of metropolitan areas in the area of operation. We didn't kill nearly that many in North Vietnam which was more urban and bombed on and off for many more years. I imagine that the numbers are estimates and include people displaced / killed by the military actions of the Cambodian government forces, NVA, U.S., ARVN and Khmer Rouge over the years.

A lot of the urban areas of NV were off-limits for the majority of the war. The vast majority of the B-52 missions were flown over South Vietnam and Cambodia/Laos whilst most of the air strikes into the North were F-4's, F-105's and the like using guided weapons against bridges and other clearly identifiable targets. The reason was simply that pictures of the devastation caused by area bombing in North Vietnam would have been a gift to the communist and anti-war media whilst the same level of devastation elsewhere was either in no-one's interest to report or a South Vietnamese problem.

Only when Nixon was prepared to throw everything at NV to get a negotiated settlement were the harbours mined and the B-52's let loose with few restrictions (don't bomb the foreign embassies in Hanoi basically). He got his settlement shortly after that.


Having read this thread and its predecessor on and off I am left with only one thought - the US gets the President it deserves.

Makes me rather glad not to live in the US if this is all that goes on for one year in every four.

	25-08-2004 17:21									#265
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So, assuming that we move on from the Kerry war record thing, where will we go. As far as I can tell Kerry hasn't said a thing about anything else, besides "I will de better, trust me."

	25-08-2004 17:28									#266
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quote: So, assuming that we move on from the Kerry war record thing, where will we go. As far as I can tell Kerry hasn't said a thing about anything else, besides "I will de better, trust me."

Mickey Kaus (a Kerry supporter) has a funny quote that relates to that...

quote: Let's assume that a certain amount of hype is standard procedure in military write-ups, especially when medals are involved. The problem is that Kerry is running for president on this official hype of a more-than-honorable record (one reason he's constantly referring reporters to his official medal citations). He's not only running on the hype but pushing it to the limit, milking it for all it's worth. That's dangerous in, yes, the Internet era! Obsessive fact-checkers can smoke out the exaggerations and get them past the ex-gatekeepers.** Unfortunately, it's more or less all Kerry's got. It wouldn't be so important if Kerry had a) a discernable ideology; b) a political message; c) a record of achievement; or d) an appealing personality!

It's funny cuz it's true.

	25-08-2004 17:32									#267
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I completely agree with the Mickey Kaus quote.

That smear campaign would be nothing if Kerry wasn't so damn empty.

Kerry should be campaigning on the grounds of "I'm not George Bush" (who has a discernable, and highly dislikeable personality), instead of lying or exagerating about things that could be easily blown away.

	25-08-2004 17:40									#268
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I think he does have the typical "coolguy" democrat personality, but other than that it is a good quote.

The ideology thing hurts him the most I would say.

	25-08-2004 18:51									#269
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This will all have died out in 2 weeks.

	25-08-2004 18:53									#270
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Not if Kerry keeps acting hysterical about it.