01-09-2004 19:15									#61
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

-=Vel=-

	01-09-2004 19:18									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Serb Aside you we didn't invade foreign country, thus violating an international law.

This troll would probably have more effect if you weren't defending your own country that has broken international laws ranging from nuclear proliferation to human rights.

	01-09-2004 19:23									#63
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I've never said Russia is an angel... but wtf you are talking about?
ABM treaty? Segregation? Or any other known Russian violations of international laws/human rights?

	01-09-2004 19:26									#64
	Suffering from ads?

In Soviet Russia, school holds you hostage!

	01-09-2004 19:30									#65
	Increase the size of your Attachments

This seizing of school children is reprehensible and should be condemned. Actions of Stalin during WW2 are irrelevant in this context.

There remains the question of what Putin can do. He HAS been very firm in Chechnya. Its not clear to me how he can get any tougher, without going way beyond international norms on human rights. OTOH he cant make a deal with a rebel leadership who abused the last deal by invading Dagestan, and who are now firmly allied with AQ.


What he MIGHT do is reexamine the question of where AQ operational leadership is located and how to support efforts to hunt them down.

Last edited by lord of the mark on 01-09-2004 at 19:48

	01-09-2004 19:39									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Historically, getting killed and driven off one's land by vastly superior weapons tends to break the fighting will of a society. See US vs. native americans in the 19th century.

	01-09-2004 19:40									#67
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In the news so far, there are about 600 people held hostage, not 200-400 as previously reported. Seven people are dead, several more wounded.

A very bad situation developing - children forced to stand at windows to prevent fire there, mines in the sports hall, and around the school territory.

	01-09-2004 19:40									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by ixnay In Soviet Russia, school holds you hostage!

	01-09-2004 19:47									#69
	Support Apolyton

****ing morons. What do they think the result of this is gonna be? Are these children responsible for anything? Do they want to turn everyone against their struggle? Do they realy think they can win a world wide war against Islam?

	01-09-2004 19:50									#70
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Do they want to turn everyone against their struggle?

People still support the Palestinians.

	01-09-2004 19:51									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

[QUOTE] Originally posted by chegitz guevara
****ing morons. What do they think the result of this is gonna be? Are these children responsible for anything? Do they want to turn everyone against their struggle? Do they realy think they can win a world wide war against Islam? [/QUOTE


1. They MAY be motivated by desires for the afterlife rather than this world politics
2. Lets assume 1 is not the case. Is the world going to turn against the terrorists, more so than now?? And where are Basayev and the Chechen rebel leadership anyway? If they were anywhere in Chechnya accessible to Russian arms wouldnt the Russians have gotten them by now?

	01-09-2004 19:53									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A lot of people are disgusted by Russian attrocities in Chechnya. If this school is blown up, who will care?

	01-09-2004 19:56									#73
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: And where are Basayev and the Chechen rebel leadership anyway? If they were anywhere in Chechnya accessible to Russian arms wouldnt the Russians have gotten them by now?

One of the best things about Russians is that they, indeed, kill the radical leaders upon finding out their whereabouts .

I got no idea on what could Russians do now. It's clear that the terrorists won't give up their position and leave the school. It's clear that meeting their demands is impossible. But, an attack is also very hard. It's not like the theater in 2002. Terrorists see what the Russians are doing, they'll be warned in advance, and can shoot all hostages before the troops reach them. I imagine the only feasible solution is to again use some powerful gas to knock everyone out, but it isn't that easy...

	01-09-2004 19:58									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Russia should probably start warning its people that it is unlikely to be able to get the children out.

Maybe they should tell the terrorists that for every child killed, 20 Chechen prisoners will be shot and buried in pig ****.

	01-09-2004 19:59									#75
	Hmm Remove this text

Chegit's last two posts are quite contradictory. Which one does he really support?

Chechen aims and AQ aims coincide in some areas. I am not sure the Chechens want to impose a Taliban like state on the whole world. If they do, then Chechen aims and AQ aims are one and the same.

	01-09-2004 20:00									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I can see che screaming bloody murder if Israel ever tried that.

	01-09-2004 20:00									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Maybe they should tell the terrorists that for every child killed, 20 Chechen prisoners will be shot and buried in pig ****.

Even if Russia isn't a full democracy, such solutions are clearly impossible for any country that pretends to be or is civilized.

I'm so afraid that this may not end without big casualties .

	01-09-2004 20:00									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I can see che screaming bloody murder if Israel ever tried that.

Not if someone took a school full of children hostage.

	01-09-2004 20:01									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So I'm being politically inconsistent. These are children.

	01-09-2004 20:02									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not if someone took a school full of children hostage.

What the difference between blowing them away on a bus and holding them hostage? They both are likely to end up just as dead.

	01-09-2004 20:05									#81
	Tired of ads?

Well, the Russians didn't force the Chechins to "invade" the school, and they certainly can't negotiate with them without legitimizing the tactic.

Only solution is to force them out. With gas if possible, with bullets if not.

-=Vel=-
(and I have to agree...no difference here between blowing up a busload of kids than taking a school filled with them hostage and killing them later)

	01-09-2004 20:05									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I hope this ends well.

	01-09-2004 20:06									#83
	Re: Hmm Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by pchang Chegit's last two posts are quite contradictory. Which one does he really support? Chechen aims and AQ aims coincide in some areas. I am not sure the Chechens want to impose a Taliban like state on the whole world. If they do, then Chechen aims and AQ aims are one and the same.

well first Im not sure that every chechen support Basayev and the radical leadership. What are Basayevs aims? Probably an Islamist state in Chechnya. Probably sees the revival of the Caliphate by AQ as principally a means to achieving his goals in Chechnya and its environs.

In any case he seems to work with AQ operationally - receiving support for operations in Chechnya and Russia, and sending Chechens to help as cannon fodder to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

	01-09-2004 20:12									#84
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Serb Be strong and promise (and fulfill his promise) that anyone who'll try that again will find punishment. No matter how, no matter where, matter when, but that evil will be punished. In other words, how he says- "mochit' mudakov v sortire". It's not possible to translate it. The most closest translation is - we will find the f*ckers anywhere, they'll regret about it, despite it will be the last thought in their f*cking heads.

If there were no Russians, there would be no Chechen terrorists.

	01-09-2004 20:13									#85
	Increase the size of your Attachments

There appear to be 2 types of terrorists in the world:

1) Those who want their own sovereign state.

2) Those who want to impose their view/religion/leadership on the rest of the world.

In many cases, the type 1 terrorists are really just type 2 terrorists starting with their first demand.

It may be possible to negotiate with the type 1 terrorists if one is willing to hand over the fate of the people who will be incorporated into their sovereign state to those terrorists. Such a thing is easier to do the farther away one is from those terrorists.

For type 2 terrorists, there are only 3 choices:
1) Die.
2) Convert to follow them.
3) Kill them before they kill us.

	01-09-2004 20:15									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

They won't be forced out with bullets. Escaped students report that they have explosive belts, and the terrorists have promised to blow the school up if a full-scale attack starts. Several officers made attempts to approach the building, but they were immediately stopped by gunfire from windows. So they can't even storm in...

	01-09-2004 20:16									#87
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

3rd choice is only acceptable one in this case. Or deport them all to northern Siberia. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but my sympathy for Islam has run out.

	01-09-2004 20:19									#88
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There is nothing wrong with Islam per se, and these terrorists do not represent the billion of Muslims in the world. To back that up immediately, one of the high-ranking Muslim clerics in North Osetia made an offer to exchange himself for hostages. That is noble action deserving respect.

	01-09-2004 20:20									#89
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, if it was me, here's what I'd do:

Do the standard negotiation thing, make the appearance of giving into some token demands to secure the release of as many kids as I could, and turn it into a waiting game.

They got no FOOD, and sooner or later, they're gonna get hungry. Want food...sure, I can help you with that....let some kids go, and its burgers and fries all around (or whatever ethnically pleasing food would be appropriate).

After a while, they'll get hot-headed and either make a mistake (snipers posted on surrounding rooftops would take advantage of any opening), or go boom...either way, they made the deciding move, and I had time to get as many kids out as possible.

No pretty solutions here.

-=Vel=-

	01-09-2004 20:21									#90
	Tired of ads?

For me - choice 3 is only acceptable one in all cases. As for Islam, I try to keep in mind that
Terrorist brand of Islam <> Islam in general
However, the longer I wait for Islam in general to rise up against the Terrorist brand of Islam, the harder it is for me to keep believing it.