02-09-2004 00:07									#151
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Again, the situation in Chechnya can not be won by military power, no matter how much effort is put into it. This is because of the simple fact that most Chechens aren't involved in this war at all anymore, except as civilians caought in the crossfire. Most of the terrorists are imported fanatics from abroad, who have drafted desperate young Chechens with nothing else to do. Al Quaeda had no influence in Chechnya before the war, and as the russians wreak havoc on the civilians, the terrorists will find more and more volunteers for revenge actions.

And as I said before, the simple solution is to restore law and order. This, however, requires that the russian army stops playing its own game down there and instead start to do what they are supposed to do. But there is little indication that this will happen.

	02-09-2004 00:11									#152
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No I say homicide bombing because that's what it is. Suicide implies only one person dies.

	02-09-2004 00:14									#153
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "Raw firepower" is a pretty meaningless way to compare the two. F.e., carpet bombing is so... Gulf War. Now it's all about dropping 500 lb. bombs in a 1 meter square box on the map.

Which only works if you know on which square meter box you should drop those two bombs. IF you don't know, then those bombs are no better than any others. Given the terrain, knowing where to hit is near to impossible, You might as well then just end the mountain itself.

	02-09-2004 00:14									#154
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Suicide implies only one person dies.

No, it doesn't at all.

	02-09-2004 00:15									#155
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Agree to send in food, but add pork to it!

No don't agree to send in food, let the only food they smell be pork.

Make a show of dipping your bullets in pig's blood.

In the latest Tom Clancy book, a guy puts a football in a shot up terrorists hands.

Let's him know its made of pigskin, then watches him die.

Perfect.

ACK!

	02-09-2004 00:15									#156
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight No I say homicide bombing because that's what it is. Suicide implies only one person dies.

No- suicide implies the method of bombings- all bombings kill people, hence a car bomb or a suitcase bomb is as much a "homicide bomb" as anything else.

	02-09-2004 00:16									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No, it doesn't at all.

Uh, yeah, it does. One person can't commit mass suicide.

ACK!

	02-09-2004 00:18									#158
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No- suicide implies the method of bombings- all bombings kill people, hence a car bomb or a suitcase bomb is as much a "homicide bomb" as anything else.

No-suicide implies that the person setting the bomb off is killing him- or herself.

ACK!

	02-09-2004 00:18									#159
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Wasn't homicide bombing a thing represented by the glorious Fox News though?

What about this: Serial killer exploder?

	02-09-2004 00:36									#160
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You can't suicide serial kill.

	02-09-2004 00:37									#161
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genocide bomber

	02-09-2004 00:38									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski No-suicide implies that the person setting the bomb off is killing him- or herself. ACK!

Your telling me they aren't doing that? What, they live all the time?

	02-09-2004 00:39									#163
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark genocide bomber

Only if the entire "people" happen to be occupaying a single room.

	02-09-2004 00:57									#164
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Only if the entire "people" happen to be occupaying a single room.

My great grand father was killed by Nazis outside of his village in Poland. That was not an act of genocide, because the entire people under attack were not there?

Would you prefer "Attempted genocide bombing"?

The point remains - its the victims that matter - who gives a f**k about the inclinations of the perpetrators, which the term "suicide bombings" implicitly focuses on.

	02-09-2004 01:01									#165
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They can't. If they do, they'll need to post a platoon of soldiers at every school in Russia.

These people are prepared to die, and they're more than prepared to take lots of innocent children with them. You think that a reckless storming of the school will discourage them from trying the same trick again? No it won't. It will be a glorious end for them.

	02-09-2004 01:01									#166
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If it was the US, and the terrorist killed 600 children, the rage of the PEOPLE would force the government into extreme action. One by one they would find out who the terrorists were and who was behind them. If it was Iran for instance, the place would be friggin leveled from the sky until 'Don't Tread On Us' was burned into their minds. The Russians could do that too. Six HUNDRED children. May God help em, this isn't right. They're just kids, they don't even understand what's happening to them.

Man, I really hate terrorists. I never hated the soviets, but I hate these *******s.

Now on FOX, Iran will go nuclear very shortly, they have everything they need.

	02-09-2004 01:04									#167
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-edit removed irrelevant stalin content-

My condolences on the plight of these Russian children. These terrorists have sunk to the lowest level of abominations.

Last edited by Geronimo on 02-09-2004 at 01:12

	02-09-2004 01:05									#168
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quote: Originally posted by dojoboy I've made this same trip. The only thing to do now is to ally closely the Asian civilization w/ ours (Western). Asia must know that Islam will not live peacefully with them either. If the Islamist world truely is being bullied by a radical branch, then they should welcome our assistance. If not, then they are complicit in their (radical) deeds. Complete containment (subjugation) of Islam may be the only option. I think when France finally comes to terms w/ this, we can roll unfettered.

You are insane. There is no such thing as Western civilization. There is no such thing as Islamic civilization. There is no such thing as Asian civilization. We are all just individuals.

This is madness.

Of course, here's some meta-commentary on your view and my response.

	02-09-2004 01:17									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. Historically, getting killed and driven off one's land by vastly superior weapons tends to break the fighting will of a society. See US vs. native americans in the 19th century.

The native americans only ended violent resistance when the US government finally stopped stealing what remained of their property.

Had the genocide continued there would have been violent resistance to the bitter end.

	02-09-2004 01:18									#170
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You can actually wipe them all out. Look at Carthage. We've just gotten soft over the years.

	02-09-2004 01:24									#171
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight No I say homicide bombing because that's what it is. Suicide implies only one person dies.

	02-09-2004 01:27									#172
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What the difference between blowing them away on a bus and holding them hostage? They both are likely to end up just as dead.

I think the pals have targeted buses that aren't necessarily going to have a preponderance of children. I think if the pals were to blow up a school bus packed with primary shcool kids then Che's reaction would be the same as with the current chechen atrocity. Remember also that the US certainly killed many children in almost all of it's 20th century wars but it never targeted the children specifically. It is the intentional targeting of kids that is so sickening in this case and which accounts for che's double standard. IIRC the pals have only had a handful of pals specifically target children so far and only on a much smaller scale never a dozen let alone hundreds. At least I hope so, I'd hate to think that such an event had been allowed to disappear from discussion.

	02-09-2004 01:47									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Ahh but that's a hard one. If you release them and promise safe transport, I'd say you need to do it really. Letting them go only to shoot them will make matters worse in the future. What amazed me... reports say that this group of men, 15-20 people, was running to the school with automatic rifles, grenade launchers and other weaponry. How the hell could they get so far with such weapons? Damn it...

How would it make things worse in the future? The best thing a government can do is renege on promises to terrorists. It undermines the whole purpose of the terrorist operation in the first place. The less connection there seems to be between the terrorist accomplishing their aims and their terrorist activities the better.

	02-09-2004 02:32									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Saving the children should take priority over storming the school to look tough. If the Russians fancy their chances at a successful assault, then by all means go for it. If an assault can't be carried out successfully, then don't do it. Negotiate, let it drag out. The children's lives are top priority. An attack that sacrifices many children in order to look tough; that's just a martyrdom operation. No different from how the terrorists think, if you ask me.

Let me ask you something. If the children die, who will be responsible? The terrorists that put their lives in danger and used them to blackmail the Russian government or the soldiers that tried to solve the situation in the best way possible, not only for the people in the school, but also for the rest of people in Russia?

If terrorists see that they can use children to get what they want no kid will be safe in Russia (and probably neither in the rest of the world).

	02-09-2004 02:33									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo I think the pals have targeted buses that aren't necessarily going to have a preponderance of children. I think if the pals were to blow up a school bus packed with primary shcool kids then Che's reaction would be the same as with the current chechen atrocity. Remember also that the US certainly killed many children in almost all of it's 20th century wars but it never targeted the children specifically. It is the intentional targeting of kids that is so sickening in this case and which accounts for che's double standard. IIRC the pals have only had a handful of pals specifically target children so far and only on a much smaller scale never a dozen let alone hundreds. At least I hope so, I'd hate to think that such an event had been allowed to disappear from discussion.

See below:
http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=524

	02-09-2004 02:54									#176
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Let me ask you something. If the children die, who will be responsible? The terrorists that put their lives in danger and used them to blackmail the Russian government or the soldiers that tried to solve the situation in the best way possible, not only for the people in the school, but also for the rest of people in Russia? If terrorists see that they can use children to get what they want no kid will be safe in Russia (and probably neither in the rest of the world).

The terrorists are responsible - but try telling that to a grieving parent who's child died because the state decided that looking tough was more important than saving lives.

The terrorists are not interested in blackmail. They are interested in a bloodbath. It's what they're equipped for, both physically and mentally. That's what they're using the children to get. No government in the world (least of all Putin) is going to actually give in to the pressure - the terrorists know this.

If suicidal terrorists see that they can attack a school to provoke a particularly bloody showdown with the authorities, don't you think they'll start doing it repeatedly? The Russians stormed the theatre in Moscow - did that discourage the terrorists? Doesn't look like it.

	02-09-2004 03:02									#177
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My great grand father was killed by Nazis outside of his village in Poland. That was not an act of genocide, because the entire people under attack were not there? Would you prefer "Attempted genocide bombing"? The point remains - its the victims that matter - who gives a f**k about the inclinations of the perpetrators, which the term "suicide bombings" implicitly focuses on.

NO, both are inaccurate. There is a policy of Genocide, and one could commit an act as part of that policy, but to say "genocide bombing" makes 0 sense. Of course, you would have to show a suicide bombing that is part of a genocidal campaign.

As for "its the victims that matter", then every type of bomb, be it a car bomb, or a suitcase bomb, or a nuclear bomb should be named "homicide bomb". Why should we not acknoweldge the homicide of the victims of a car bomb? Yet I see no move by anyone to label truck bombs or car bombs "homicide bombs"- are you telling me the fact it was a car is more important than the victims?

The term homicide bomber is meant to remove the suicide bomber from the equation, which makes little sense rationally, since it is the fact that someone killed themselves in their act of violence that sets the suicide bomb apart from all other remote acts of killing with explosives.

	02-09-2004 03:12									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The terrorists are responsible - but try telling that to a grieving parent who's child died because the state decided that looking tough was more important than saving lives.

I didnīt say it is an easy thing to do. Thatīs why not everyone can (or should) be in the position to make this kind of decisions. But here the trees donīt let us see the forest. We (well, they, because we are not doing anything) need to do as much as possible to save the hostages, but without compromising the security and every day life of all the other Russian people.

quote: The terrorists are not interested in blackmail.

Curious way of acting for someone that is not interested in blackmail. Holding dozens of kids hostages, knowing that the government will be appointed as the responsible by public opinion if they die. By the way, this act is even worst if we think that todayīs is almost a festive day in Russian schools (the first day of the school year).

quote: They are interested in a bloodbath.

If they were interested in that, they would have destroyed the school by now, as they sadly did with the two tupolev. No. In my opinion is pretty clear that they are interested in blackmailing and also fear.

quote: It's what they're equipped for, both physically and mentally. That's what they're using the children to get. No government in the world (least of all Putin) is going to actually give in to the pressure - the terrorists know this.

Spanish government would...

quote: If suicidal terrorists see that they can attack a school to provoke a particularly bloody showdown with the authorities, don't you think they'll start doing it repeatedly?

Terrorism is the art of defeating a country (or a government) by attacking its weakest part: the civil population. I have no doubt that they will kill/held hostages/wathever as much civils as they can, to create a sensation of insecurity among the population.

It is said that western democracies can win in the battlefield but lose the public opinion battle. Despite Russia is a bit different than the "oldest" western democracies in this sense, terrorists are trying anyway.

	02-09-2004 04:36									#179
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An expert on BBC Newsnight tonghit was suggesting that the Russians might try to keep negotations going for a long while so some of the hostage takers might develop "inverse Stockholm syndrome" and protest when children were threatened to be killed.

	02-09-2004 04:41									#180
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Bush has phoned Putin to offer all his support. Thatīs the way to go!