06-09-2004 12:57									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/18/osce.summit.03/

That's nice

Different President

And not recent

	06-09-2004 13:09									#272
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Geronimo, I am trying to think on how we have not been there for Yeltsin and Putin. We have been quite supportive because we want democracy in Russia to succeed.

Please give me some example of US mistreatment of Russia.

	06-09-2004 13:21									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Geronimo, I am trying to think on how we have not been there for Yeltsin and Putin. We have been quite supportive because we want democracy in Russia to succeed. Please give me some example of US mistreatment of Russia.

We have snubbed russia in almost every diplomatic encounter but one example that is fresh in my memory is that because of prohibitions on transfers of governement money to russia NASA cannot offer one red cent to the Russian space agency to offset the extra burden Russia is having to shoulder due to the grounding of our shuttles. We would have no trouble making such cash transfers to any of our other ISS space partners but for russia we refuse. I also find fault in the fact that we have actively invited several countries into NATO but have not even tried to sell the idea of bringing Russia into NATO. I also remember the awful war against serbia in which we refused offers of a role for russian peacekeeping which would not be under nato command even though Russia had at least as much business interferring in the balkans as NATO did. After that travesty, I doubt we will ver be able to convince Russia to join NATO and we will have cheated ourselves out of an extremely valuable ally. I wish I had more specific examples for you but in general I would say it's undeniable that we do not treat Russia as an ally even though we probably see more eye to eye with them than with the vast majority of our NATO partners.

	06-09-2004 13:37									#274
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I don't know about the NASA funding problem, but we should be grateful for Russian help on the Spacestation.

As to NATO, I think the US and Russia ought to form a separate alliance given that France is part of NATO. We are in a mutual war against Islamic terror and we need an effective alliance.

In fact, I would like to see NATO dissolved and a new anti-French alliance formed with willing European states.

As to particular operations in particuluar states, one really needs a unified command structure. The operation in Kosovo was under NATO command, which really meant that Clinton called the shots. In Iraq, while the US has overall command, the Brits really are in control in the South and US units operating there are under British command.

I am sure if Russia and the US ever needed to conduct joint operations, we could figure something out that would be mutually satisfactory.

	06-09-2004 15:50									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo We have snubbed russia in almost every diplomatic encounter but one example that is fresh in my memory is that because of prohibitions on transfers of governement money to russia NASA cannot offer one red cent to the Russian space agency to offset the extra burden Russia is having to shoulder due to the grounding of our shuttles. We would have no trouble making such cash transfers to any of our other ISS space partners but for russia we refuse. I also find fault in the fact that we have actively invited several countries into NATO but have not even tried to sell the idea of bringing Russia into NATO. I also remember the awful war against serbia in which we refused offers of a role for russian peacekeeping which would not be under nato command even though Russia had at least as much business interferring in the balkans as NATO did. After that travesty, I doubt we will ver be able to convince Russia to join NATO and we will have cheated ourselves out of an extremely valuable ally. I wish I had more specific examples for you but in general I would say it's undeniable that we do not treat Russia as an ally even though we probably see more eye to eye with them than with the vast majority of our NATO partners.

true, true.

	06-09-2004 20:10									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker http://brneurosci.org/israel-terrorism.html The reason there is an Israel is because the USA told the United Nations to make one.

IIRC in the late 1940s President Truman demanded that Britain liberate its colonies. He even threatened to cut food ais. Since Britain was still dependent on American food aid the British had no choice but to comply, and so they made plans to make India and Israel independent, and made preparations for the independence of the other colonies. Even without American pressure their was also considerable anti-colonial sentiment in the Labor party, which took power after Churchill was defeated. American pressure probably helped to quash objections from more conservative parties. Independence for Israel was delayed by negotiations over how to satisfy both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and also by the British efforts to prevent illegal immigration of Jews. One could argue that terrorism may have delayed the independence of ISrael, as the British government found it hard to be made to appear that they were knuckling under to terroroists.

	07-09-2004 00:01									#277
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Israeli ...khm...OK... terrorists
a. Fought for future peaceful and democratic state
b. Did not think that killing their enemies is more important than their own lives
c. Did not try to restart the war when ended



Serb :

	07-09-2004 00:55									#278
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Hmm, news stories here seem to have started figuring out the life-saving, common angle to reporting on all of this, which will probably soon be the accepted explanation among a large number of people, incapable of blaming Muslim fanatics for much more than... sorry, can't think of anything.

Putin is the villain. Simple as that. And very, very convenient for the preservation of a lot of people's world view.

I have this strange feeling that we'll see in the coming weeks this will turn out being presented as nearly the sole fault of Putin, his blatant incompetence and macho ways in general... The terrorists, the fanatic clerics, the indifference of millions of Muslims are minor points when compared to the fascist ways of that cold-hearted bastard Vladimir Putin. He's almost as bad as Bush, but not quite. Just wait and see.

Who actually remembers say, the Bali bombing and who were behind it, two years later. Nobody. Nothing will change. Except the death toll.

	07-09-2004 00:59									#279
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The face of terror

	07-09-2004 02:09									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Hmm, news stories here seem to have started figuring out the life-saving, common angle to reporting on all of this, which will probably soon be the accepted explanation among a large number of people, incapable of blaming Muslim fanatics for much more than... sorry, can't think of anything. Putin is the villain. Simple as that. And very, very convenient for the preservation of a lot of people's world view. I have this strange feeling that we'll see in the coming weeks this will turn out being presented as nearly the sole fault of Putin, his blatant incompetence and macho ways in general... The terrorists, the fanatic clerics, the indifference of millions of Muslims are minor points when compared to the fascist ways of that cold-hearted bastard Vladimir Putin. He's almost as bad as Bush, but not quite. Just wait and see. Who actually remembers say, the Bali bombing and who were behind it, two years later. Nobody. Nothing will change. Except the death toll.

Take a look at the thread on the reaction of the Muslim world. Some Muslims are now beginning to see the negative consequences of radical Islamist movements. It would be nice to believe that this incident might be the beginning of a modern world conciousness among Muslims.

	07-09-2004 02:21									#281
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I saw it Doc, I just don't believe it will last.

And lots of people in the "West" don't want to blame radical Islam in the first place, not even in a case as horrible as the tragedy we just witnessed. It's considered terribly racist you know.

And what's even worse, it might show how wrong and warped those same well-meaning, good people have been now for decades. Can't let that happen. That's why every expert academic in these parts is now blaming Putin, not the terrorists.

Nothing will change, not even after Beslan.

	07-09-2004 02:21									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo We have snubbed russia in almost every diplomatic encounter but one example that is fresh in my memory is that because of prohibitions on transfers of governement money to russia NASA cannot offer one red cent to the Russian space agency to offset the extra burden Russia is having to shoulder due to the grounding of our shuttles. We would have no trouble making such cash transfers to any of our other ISS space partners but for russia we refuse. I also find fault in the fact that we have actively invited several countries into NATO but have not even tried to sell the idea of bringing Russia into NATO. I also remember the awful war against serbia in which we refused offers of a role for russian peacekeeping which would not be under nato command even though Russia had at least as much business interferring in the balkans as NATO did. After that travesty, I doubt we will ver be able to convince Russia to join NATO and we will have cheated ourselves out of an extremely valuable ally. I wish I had more specific examples for you but in general I would say it's undeniable that we do not treat Russia as an ally even though we probably see more eye to eye with them than with the vast majority of our NATO partners.

Well done Geronimo

	07-09-2004 02:24									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove IIRC in the late 1940s President Truman demanded that Britain liberate its colonies. He even threatened to cut food ais. Since Britain was still dependent on American food aid the British had no choice but to comply, and so they made plans to make India and Israel independent, and made preparations for the independence of the other colonies. Even without American pressure their was also considerable anti-colonial sentiment in the Labor party, which took power after Churchill was defeated. American pressure probably helped to quash objections from more conservative parties. Independence for Israel was delayed by negotiations over how to satisfy both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and also by the British efforts to prevent illegal immigration of Jews. One could argue that terrorism may have delayed the independence of ISrael, as the British government found it hard to be made to appear that they were knuckling under to terroroists.

	07-09-2004 02:43									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That's nice Different President And not recent

It's the same ole same ole Ted and it's not going to change. Should be careful about who we give black checks to. It often bites us in the ass later on.

	07-09-2004 02:46									#285
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Come on, Putin is 5 times the leader alcoholic Yeltsin was.

	07-09-2004 02:47									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I saw it Doc, I just don't believe it will last. And lots of people in the "West" don't want to blame radical Islam in the first place, not even in a case as horrible as the tragedy we just witnessed. It's considered terribly racist you know.

How ironic that it's considered racist when most of the perpetrators are as literally caucasian as can be.

I hate that people conflate anything having to do with linguistic, moral or cultural differences with racism. All but race include at least some ability to choose, and by confusing the issues with spurious claims of racism it makes it seem as though people with other values / culture have no choices in what they value or how they behave. Which sounds a lot like racism.

quote: Originally posted by Winston And what's even worse, it might show how wrong and warped those same well-meaning, good people have been now for decades. Can't let that happen. That's why every expert academic in these parts is now blaming Putin, not the terrorists. Nothing will change, not even after Beslan.

I hope you are wrong about that. Here the touchy-feely left is in recession due to 9/11 and scores of other incidents over the past 30 years or so leading up to it.

It's important that that portion of the left which is unrealistic become more relevent. They shouldn't become right wingers, but they need to get on the same page as everyone else in order to even contribute to the debate.

	07-09-2004 03:38									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf The face of terror

Yup, quite handsome.

quote: Come on, Putin is 5 times the leader alcoholic Yeltsin was.

Yeltzin destroyed Soviet union, defended Russian democracy against communists, and managed to keep position of Russia in the world very high. Yes, He's chosen Putin as his successor, but it's just one mistake.
He was an alcoholic - but it's a disease. Bashing Him for that is not right.

	07-09-2004 03:51									#288
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Yeltsin was the best thing that could've happened to Russia at that time.

I have a lot of respect for him also, despite the various shortcomings of his. He is human, not the worst of traits for a political leader.

	07-09-2004 03:54									#289
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Nope, while Yeltsin did lead the rebellion, and was successful, as an administrator he was marginal.

There is a big difference between those two roles.

	07-09-2004 03:58									#290
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I'm not talking of his qualities as an administrator but of his abilities as the political leader of a nation in turmoil. He battled it out with the reactionary Communist majority in the Duma and resisting forces on numerous levels in society for a long time after the rebellion. I give him props for having succesfully completed the political transition of the country at a critical time in history.

His economic and other domestic policies/achievements are more dubious and debatable, no argument there.

	07-09-2004 04:13									#291
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In any case, Serb was right, the goal of the terrorists was to start a war in the Caucasus.

quote: BESLAN, Russia (CNN) -- A suspect in the bloody school siege that left more than 330 people dead, nearly half of them children, said Monday the hostage-takers were ordered to seize the school to "start a war across the Caucasus." Appearing on Russian state television, the unidentified man said the attack was ordered by Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov and Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev. "They gathered us in the woods and 'The Colonel' said that we should take over a school in Beslan. That was our order," he said. "When we asked why we were doing this, what our goal was, 'The Colonel' answered us, 'Because we need to start a war across the Caucasus." He said the hostage-takers included Uzbeks, Arabs and Chechens.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...hool/index.html

	07-09-2004 04:28									#292
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I have one thing to say.
All my complains about past Russian behaviour, and probably the future too, and all my complaining about idiotisms our dear Serb sometimes say does not change the fact that it is a great, great tragedy and act of barbarism.
While I think Chechens have right to independance, I doubt that in modern times independance is worth such long fight and destruction, not to mention lifes of civils that had nothing to do with the case itself.
I hope the fights will end there, and what will be the result, it has less importance. After all, Russia doesn't want to destroy Chechenia. It wants to gain souvereignity over it. So I wish Russia good luck in solving the problem, wishing it will choose better methods to achieve that than in the past

	07-09-2004 05:42									#293
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Do we really know if most Chechens want an independent Chechnya, and if they do, do they want a Chechnya ruled by fundamentalist extremists? If you follow the link to the CNN webpage there is a URL to a video of the Arab reaction. It appears while some are concerned over the wanton slaughter they take it as an article of faith that the attack was motivated by legitimate political greivances.

	07-09-2004 06:34									#294
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Actually, I think that it was rather an fundamentalist attack than a Chechen one. I don't know whether majority wants to be independant - but if the things You hear about Russian behaviour there is true, than I think it is probable.
Still, I think that people in general are blind masses and if You delete some political activist, they are done at least for a while

	07-09-2004 07:59									#295
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker In any case, Serb was right, the goal of the terrorists was to start a war in the Caucasus. quote: BESLAN, Russia (CNN) -- A suspect in the bloody school siege that left more than 330 people dead, nearly half of them children, said Monday the hostage-takers were ordered to seize the school to "start a war across the Caucasus." Appearing on Russian state television, the unidentified man said the attack was ordered by Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov and Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev. "They gathered us in the woods and 'The Colonel' said that we should take over a school in Beslan. That was our order," he said. "When we asked why we were doing this, what our goal was, 'The Colonel' answered us, 'Because we need to start a war across the Caucasus." He said the hostage-takers included Uzbeks, Arabs and Chechens. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europ...hool/index.html

I saw this f*cker yestarday on TV. He was like a scared to death whining piece of sh!t- "I swear to God I didn't want to be involved in this, they forced me to do this, I swear to God I didn't kill anyone, I swear to God I didn't kill children, when they run, I heard order- "shot them", but I shot over their head, I swear to God. I want to live, etc."
F*cking bastard.
He indeed said that it was Basaev and Maskhadov order to capture the school and that gang was indeed international- Arabs, Uzbecks, Chechens one Kazakh and even one LOCAL Ossetin f*cker who FINISHED this school.
Also he denies previous version about weapons stashed in school and says they brought all weapons and explosives in truck.
Former hostages recognized him. Spetsnaz captured him among the last ones and he was using kids as alive shild. I say- get all info that he knows, then throw him to parents of murdered children.
More shoking details now comes from former hostages, those f*ckers tortued their victims, forced kids to drink thier own piss, beaten them and threaten/and actually kill them for crying. One 74 year old teacher, who was ethnic Greek was shot when he was trying to calm down a crying child. He seat down near crying kid and started to speak with him, and bastards just shot him at his back. They also executed all males who look physically strong during first day, without any reason, just because of fear they could resist.

	07-09-2004 08:11									#296
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I thought that the hostages had witnessed the terrorists pulling up floor boards and retreiving materials from underneath? I don't see why they would have lied about such a detail. Why would this guy lie about this one detail? Perhaps there is someone still at large he is protecting. OTOH could the terrorists have been pulling up boards in order to plant boobytraps?

When this is over the Russians can consult with the Germans about seeing what it would take for an unfortuante suicide to await this fellow in the future. Tragic thing that happened to the Bader-Meyerhoff gang. Tragic.

	07-09-2004 08:30									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson 1) it was not an independance

Then what the hell it was?
Moscow controlled nothing in Chechnya between 1996-1999.
NOTHING.
And how the hell they could if there were not a single Russian soldier or cop in Chechnya?
They were free to do anything they wanted, ANYTHING. And they actually did what they wanted - they established a Taliban type state which had nothing common with Russian Federation and its constitution.

quote: 2) it was a short time

We had more than enough of this nightmare during three years of their independence. You suggest we should let them to kill us, to steal our citizens and convert them into slaves and to invade us till the end of times, till they kill all of us and win?

quote: 3) it wasn't the state that made this excursion, and it condemned it anyway

Oh my, you are just BLIND Heresson, just BLIND. No matter what happens, no matter what happened, no matter of any facts you're just keep whining- no, no, no, they couldn't do that, they were good guys.
I saw a tape how Maskhadov (their so-called president) awarded Basaev and Hattab by watches for fight against unfaithfull. It was after explosions of appartment buildings in Moscow and other Russian cities that killed hundreds of sleeping civilians. Those bastards were lauthing, and he was lauthing when he gave them thier awards. It was when Chechnya was still de-facto independent.
Now, when the hell Maskhadov condemned terrorism or invasion in Dagestan?
WHEN? And how the hell he could do this, if he is a terrorist himself? He planned 2002 Moscow's theater tackover, he planned Beslan school takeover. Why anyone in his straight mind should trust to a single word of such person?
To your knowledge, in 1999 Basaev who was in charge of forces that invaded Dagestan was a defense minister of Maskhadov's government of Chechnya.
Now you say that Chechen government condemned the attack on Dagestan? You must be completly stupid or completely blind?
Maskhadov who send his defense minister to invade Dagestan, thus declared war to Russia, It is the act of war, Goddamnit. Do you understan this? They, they so-called government declared war on Russia by invading Russian Dagestan in 1999, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
I've never heard he denied his responsibility for invasion in Dagestan. What I heard is when his minions were defeated in Dagestan and were running with tails between their legs back to Chechnya, he declared mobilization and declared Jihad over Russia.
So stop you BS about them being victims.

quote: 4) There were no proofs that the attacks were caused by Chechenians

We had plenty of evidences that prove that explosions of appartment builds in Russian cities were planned by Basaev and Hattab, as well as evidencies that numerous terrorist acts against Russia between 1996-1999 have Chechen trace. But, we didn't return to Chechnya in the second war because of this, we returned becuase they declared war on Russia by vioalting truce signed in Hasaviurt in 1996 and peace threaty signed six months later in Moscow between Eltsin and Maskhadov, because THEY INVADED RUSSIAN REPUBLIC.

quote: I may agree that, since Dudajew's death, Chechenia was too weak to control its territory, and the excursions You've mentioned are example of it. But with a proper help...

Look with the same success you can complain that Iraqis would be way better under Saddam, and his removal was a big mistake.
Dudaev was a sick ****, a nazist scum. Saddam pale in comparison with him.

quote: Anyway, there was still a civil war in Afghanistan, and Talibs were openly fundamental regime, which constitutes a great difference between them and Chechenia.

What difference?
Chechnya between 1996-1999 WAS A FUNDAMETALIST REGIME. Absolutely the same regime as Taliban with the same corrupted extremist teachings instead of religion.
There were no differences between them and Taliban, not a single difference.

	07-09-2004 08:31									#298
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why is the life of a child worth more than that of an adult?

This is not another nonsensical comment by myself. I'm really curious why women and children are valued more by western society (and I consider Russia to be part of western society btw)

	07-09-2004 08:36									#299
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Serb

	07-09-2004 08:51									#300
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Diss