04-09-2004 06:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Did you just get thru playing civ or something? This is the real world. You can't just go around killing those who threaten you, especially if they're kids. Christ!

Why not?

	04-09-2004 07:05									#32
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I feel threatened by this guy who lives down the street from me. He is a convicted rapist, has a long list of felonys and misdemenors. I think he could kill me at any point, and has already threatened one of my roomates.

Its ok by you if I just go kill him then, DD?

	04-09-2004 07:10									#33
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There is this guy I know whose views expressed on an online forum are a threat to America and my way of life.

Was it wrong that I killed him?

	04-09-2004 07:11									#34
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I was wondering why we hadn't seen Fez around in a while

	04-09-2004 08:03									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I saw some AP photos of the aftermath of all this and... Regardless of Russia's politics past and present, this cannot be justified. This is an atrocity.

This is horrible.

I cannot believe that this happened. It's like a bad movie. I really cannot comprehend how something like this could happen.

	04-09-2004 08:08									#36
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Now, don't be too quick to judge the Chechen resistence. These people who stomed this school, they are sick and demented, but I dont' think they represent the Chechen rebels, whom I support as I supported our Founding Fathers, who would've been deemed terrorists 200 years ago if there had been such a word.

I don't support terrorist attacks (ie, those aimed at civilians) but I can understand the Chechen cause as like those held by the Polish etc during the Soviet Union.

	04-09-2004 08:32									#37
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"Just before 0900 GMT, emergency workers enter the school to recover the bodies of dead hostages, thought to be about 15.
Minutes later, explosions and gunfire are heard and, at about 0915, a group of hostages of different ages manages to escape.

The order of events is still unclear. But one eyewitness has told Russian media that one of the many bombs stuck with tape around the gym fell and exploded. The roof caved in and hostages started to run.

The attackers fired at them as they fled, prompting the troops outside to shoot back"

	04-09-2004 08:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Now, don't be too quick to judge the Chechen resistence. These people who stomed this school, they are sick and demented, but I dont' think they represent the Chechen rebels

CNN says ten of the hostage takers are Arabs. Doesn't mean much, the Chechens have been having Jihadist help for years.

quote: , whom I support as I supported our Founding Fathers, who would've been deemed terrorists 200 years ago if there had been such a word.

Sam Adams and Ben Franklin stormed a school and took children hostage, huh?

	04-09-2004 08:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Now, don't be too quick to judge the Chechen resistence. These people who stomed this school, they are sick and demented, but I dont' think they represent the Chechen rebels, whom I support as I supported our Founding Fathers, who would've been deemed terrorists 200 years ago if there had been such a word. I don't support terrorist attacks (ie, those aimed at civilians) but I can understand the Chechen cause as like those held by the Polish etc during the Soviet Union.

YOU ARE COMPARING THEM TO OUR FOUNDING FATHERS?

WHAT THE ****?????

	04-09-2004 08:55									#40
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quote: I don't understand why it would be difficult for the town to determine who was in the school. Hasn't anybody done a headcount of families with students who attend the school to get an idea of this? 1500 people is vastly in excess of the 300-350 people that were reported before.

Don't forget tat it was the first day of school.

	04-09-2004 09:01									#41
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Apperently, there were 300-350 families, and the authorities took some liberties in reporting it.

	04-09-2004 09:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker YOU ARE COMPARING THEM TO OUR FOUNDING FATHERS? WHAT THE ****?????

Note: I specifically said these people who stormed the school were not of the resistence.

But the prinicples of revolution are the same. Just because you are indoctrinated with the idea that we = good, they = bad doesn't mean its the truth. The Boston Tea Party, if held today, would mean someone driving up to the side of the boat and blowing it up. Revolution at different times employ different measures.

	04-09-2004 09:12									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Sam Adams and Ben Franklin stormed a school and took children hostage, huh?

Don't be stupid. If the word "terrorist" had existed back in those days, you can guarentee that the British would've used the word to describe what happened in the Colonies.

	04-09-2004 09:37									#44
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I understand what TEF is trying to say. The Brits of the time would probably have considered most of the colonial leaders as terrorist if the concept had been thought of back then. And all the founding fathers knew very well that they would have been hanged if things had turned out differently. Their fate would have been the same as the Irish leaders in the early 1900s.

American revolutionaries, civil rights activist in the 60s, palistinians, chechens all have some justifications for their hate, but the difference was in how they chose to achieve their goals. IMO the palistianians and chechens have lowered themselves to the level of animals in the way they have gone about their struggles. If the Palistians and chechens kept their use of force against military targets then I may feel different, but both CHOSE the path of deliberate killing of civilians. Some want to differenciate between adults and children but I don't. The civil rights activists chose protest and civil disobedience. the founding fathers eventually chose to act against the King and his military might.

It's not enough to have a good cause. If you lower yourself to the level of animals than you deserve to be treated like them..

	04-09-2004 09:42									#45
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Now, don't be too quick to judge the Chechen resistence. These people who stomed this school, they are sick and demented, but I dont' think they represent the Chechen rebels, whom I support as I supported our Founding Fathers, who would've been deemed terrorists 200 years ago if there had been such a word. I don't support terrorist attacks (ie, those aimed at civilians) but I can understand the Chechen cause as like those held by the Polish etc during the Soviet Union.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0857260.html

" Fighting continued through 1996, when Dudayev was killed and succeeded by Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev. The Russians withdrew, essentially admitting defeat, following a cease-fire that left Chechnya with de facto autonomy."

"In 1999, Islamic law was established. Terrorism, including a series of bombings in Moscow, erupted again, and after Islamic militants invaded neighboring Dagestan from Chechnya, Russian forces bombed and invaded Chechnya, capturing Grozny and forcing the rebels into mountain strongholds. "

No.

	04-09-2004 09:43									#46
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Sprayber: Exactly. Attacking civilians is never just. No matter what the society (and societies each have their own rules, which I understand from an Anthropological point of view) I can't ever back killing civilians. However, the CAUSE is the same.

	04-09-2004 09:44									#47
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No what? No matter autonomy granted, it could easily be taken back in the future. The only way a nation can be sovereign is by having its own government and borders not under the control of an outside force.

BTW, for future reference, anyone that accuses me of siding with those who took the school are utterly mistaken.

	04-09-2004 09:46									#48
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Don't be stupid. If the word "terrorist" had existed back in those days, you can guarentee that the British would've used the word to describe what happened in the Colonies.

There was "terrorism" on both sides, and the British themselves can be held largely responsible for just as much.

The war in the south was particularly bloody, with the British at one point sponsoring loyalist militias in the south to do the fighting for them. The idea as that if a local, colonial face was doing the fighting, it would be more legitimate and also the intelligence would be much more effective. (Sound familiar?)

Unfortunatley this got out of hand as simple fighting turned into massacres and punitive raids against innocent civilians (men, women, and children) took place between loyalists and separitists, but most of it being started by British loyalists.

This part of the Revolutionary War doesn't get much airtime, and it proved to be a fatal mistake that can be largely attributed to the British losing the south, which eventualy cost them the war.

	04-09-2004 09:49									#49
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Israel, Russia, and half a dozen other nations that combat terrorism take the same steps, yet you never hear about it because those are who are in control. ****, Putin himself and his government are responsible for many civilian casualties in Chechnya.

	04-09-2004 09:49									#50
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The Boston Tea Party didn't sink the ships and din't kill the crews -- they just dumped the cargoes.

Your comparison dosen't work.

	04-09-2004 09:50									#51
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Israel, Russia, and half a dozen other nations that combat terrorism take the same steps, yet you never hear about it because those are who are in control. ****, Putin himself and his government are responsible for many civilian casualties in Chechnya.

I hardly can imagine Putin ordering his troops to go shell a damn school full of children.

Whatever..

	04-09-2004 09:51									#52
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...if...it took place TODAY...it WOULD have employed killing and destroying a ship

You're talking as if the Tea Party could have an effect in todays world: It COULDN'T. It would be regarded in the same effect as the protesters in NYC who got Naked over AIDS.

The comparison does work.

	04-09-2004 09:52									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I hardly can imagine Putin ordering his troops to go shell a damn school full of children. Whatever..

Look, you just accused me of supporting that, which I don't. I also said that these people aren't part of the major Chechen resistence, which they probably aren't. Nonetheless, Putin has approved the indescriminate bombing of supposed terrorist hiding places, which include the killing of women and children.

	04-09-2004 09:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous ...if...it took place TODAY...it WOULD have employed killing and destroying a ship You're talking as if the Tea Party could have an effect in todays world: It COULDN'T. It would be regarded in the same effect as the protesters in NYC who got Naked over AIDS. The comparison does work.

It's a hypothetical stretch.

	04-09-2004 09:54									#55
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous No what? No matter autonomy granted, it could easily be taken back in the future. The only way a nation can be sovereign is by having its own government and borders not under the control of an outside force. BTW, for future reference, anyone that accuses me of siding with those who took the school are utterly mistaken.

No, they are not freedom fighters. Blowing up apartment complexes was not a way of garunteeing sovereignty.Shitting on the Russians for attacking and destroying the people who supported those attacks and then calling the terrorists the victims kinda does make it seem like you support the people that took the school.

	04-09-2004 09:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker It's a hypothetical stretch.

Considering that we can't prove it, it can't be anything but hypothesis.

	04-09-2004 09:56									#57
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Look, you just accused me of supporting that, which I don't. I also said that these people aren't part of the major Chechen resistence, which they probably aren't. Nonetheless, [quote] Putin has approved the indescriminate bombing of supposed terrorist hiding places, which include the killing of women and children.

Indescriminate ? I doubt it.

So has this benevolent Chechen resistance denounced this act?

The only active fighters don't seem to be doing much latlely other than blowing up innocent civiilians.

	04-09-2004 09:58									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha No, they are not freedom fighters. Blowing up apartment complexes was not a way of garunteeing sovereignty.Shitting on the Russians for attacking and destroying the people who supported those attacks and then calling the terrorists the victims kinda does make it seem like you support the people that took the school.

In today's world, terrorism is seen as the best method to fight a revolution. I don't agree with terrorism, but I believe in the cause behind it, just as I would agree with citizens in the US overthrowing an unjust government.

Those fighting for a cause are never seen as just until they win.

	04-09-2004 10:02									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Indescriminate ? I doubt it.

I highlighted the bombing of Grozny in the previous incarnation of this thread.

quote: In today's world, terrorism is seen as the best method to fight a revolution.

Facts seem to provide an opposing viewpoint. I'd argue quite seriously that it acts against the very interests you claim to be defending as you kill women and children.

	04-09-2004 10:05									#60
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Thats the thing, I don't buy this crap about it being about them overthrowing the evil shackles of,er,autonomy... Both in the Theatre incident, and this one(hell all of them), their only aim was a great many dead Russians.