04-09-2004 10:06									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I highlighted the bombing of Grozny in the previous incarnation of this thread.

So give me a summary.

	04-09-2004 10:08									#62
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They used the conventional explosive equivilent of a tactical nuke on a populated city. Is that summarized enough? I can go molly on you and give a link if not.

	04-09-2004 10:08									#63
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous ...if...it took place TODAY...it WOULD have employed killing and destroying a ship You're talking as if the Tea Party could have an effect in todays world: It COULDN'T. It would be regarded in the same effect as the protesters in NYC who got Naked over AIDS. The comparison does work.

Greenpeace destroys ships and kills crews?

	04-09-2004 10:08									#64
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In the theatre incident, most of the people died due to a lack in Russian planning.

DD:

quote: I'd argue quite seriously that it acts against the very interests you claim to be defending as you kill women and children.

See, you using the word "you" implies that I am for killing women and children. How about the word "rebels". This is a much better sentence:

quote: I'd argue quite seriously that it acts against the very interests rebels claim to be defending as rebels kill women and children.

	04-09-2004 10:09									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc They used the conventional explosive equivilent of a tactical nuke on a populated city. Is that summarized enough? I can go molly on you and give a link if not.

Cut the smartass attitude d1ckhead

Your trolling of Serb has been disgusting enough.

	04-09-2004 10:10									#66
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Greenpeace destroys ships and kills crews?

Last I checked, Greenpeace was referred to as "eco-terrorists"

	04-09-2004 10:15									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Cut the smartass attitude d1ckhead

Can't help it. Here's the link I promissed: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/fm...air/fuelair.htm

quote: Your trolling of Serb has been disgusting enough.

What I found disgusting was che's (the real person I was trying to bait that thread. I like Serb and wasn't trying to goad him that time.) and others hypocritical reactions to the incident.

	04-09-2004 10:15									#68
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In the Theatre the Chechyans had a number of black widows distributed throughout the building and ready to bring it down. They also starved the people in the building(that seems to be SOP, same thing happened at the school). They gave the Russians 48 hours to completely pull out of Chechnya, which is impossible, and theres no way they could verify it in any event.

Presented with all of this the fact that the Russians got anyone out alive means that they did anything BUT botch the operation.

	04-09-2004 10:18									#69
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Less secrecy about the identity of the gas would have saved more lives but overall it was a good op, IMO.

	04-09-2004 10:21									#70
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Or enough antidote at the site for all of the hostages. As long as the Russian government was able to say they defeated those terrorists, they didn't care how many they saved.

I think I may be biased against the Russian government...

	04-09-2004 10:22									#71
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Ya think? I'd never have guessed.

	04-09-2004 10:23									#72
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Well, they haven't changed much in the past 15 years...why should I trust them to do "the right thing" now?

	04-09-2004 10:24									#73
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as usual, very few here can understand complex issues and parallels as demonstrated with what the fabulous emperor is saying.

and dont say targeting civilians is different -remember when the bombs exploded on the spanish buses and everyone jumped on the ETA and called them 'just like al qaeda.' the eta doesnt target random civilians. im not saying what they are doing is right, im just saying there is a difference between what they do and what al qaeda does. its a question of degrees.

	04-09-2004 10:26									#74
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I will grant that they probably don't give a rats ass about the people, but they've done what they can with what they have.

	04-09-2004 10:28									#75
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Thanks LoA . Finally some back up. Even if you don't agree with what I'm saying, you can understand the reason behind it.

	04-09-2004 10:30									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Can't help it. Here's the link I promissed: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/fm...air/fuelair.htm What I found disgusting was che's (the real person I was trying to bait that thread. I like Serb and wasn't trying to goad him that time.) and others hypocritical reactions to the incident.

Alright then.

Trolling of chegitz is generally welcomed.

	04-09-2004 10:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia as usual, very few here can understand complex issues and parallels as demonstrated with what the fabulous emperor is saying.

I'm glad with your elevated intelligence and critical thinking skills that we can finally find enlightenment.

	04-09-2004 10:34									#78
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It certainly could help the discussion

	04-09-2004 11:37									#79
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The "ivory tower" types haven't got a clue, and neither do the "shoot first and ask questions later" types. There, how's that for clearing things up?

Gatekeeper

	04-09-2004 11:48									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper The "ivory tower" types haven't got a clue, and neither do the "shoot first and ask questions later" types. There, how's that for clearing things up? Gatekeeper

Not much actually.

Anyway, I was gonna post some pictures of Grozny for Ted but it doesn't really matter because it still doesn't justify what the terrorist did at the school. I don't really think anyone here is even saying that. The Russian goverment isn't innocent by any means but the kids in the school were.

	04-09-2004 11:48									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Cut the smartass attitude d1ckhead Your trolling of Serb has been disgusting enough.

I'm really tired of you selectively attacking trolls when the majority of the posters have strayed at some time. I have apologized for my part, now lets see if you'll go after everyone else. A blanket statement admonishing everyone (or a pm to a moderater) would be adequete.

	04-09-2004 11:51									#82
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"Rebel" = wrong word. Let's say terrorists or bandits.

I agree with you, bandits are victims. But they do not fight for their nation, they fight for their muslim leaders, leaders of international terrorists who fight for rule of the whole world and will kill everybody on their way. And indeed they do not care about their own people. And their propoganda kills souls of their nation, disables human ability to understand real world, damages the welfare of their nations. When Stalin said about good of soviet people he meant only HIS OWN GOOD. When terrorist leaders say that they fight for muslim nation it means that they fight for personal benefit and do not care about nation.

And indeed Russian leaders do not worry about Russian nation, they worry about theirselves

	04-09-2004 11:54									#83
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Solidarity with our Russian friends. Has President Putin declared a period of mourning?

	04-09-2004 11:56									#84
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Chechen seperatists do not, in theory, equal muslim fanatics. I believe that their supposed battle for a seperate Chechen nation is a good thing. What you, muxec, imply is that the Chechen fighters fight only for an Islamist nation, which you as a member of the nation of Israel oppose. However, I think that if the Chechens are fighting for their own people and nation, I support them, even if they want to create a theocracy...it should be up to them to govern themselves, if that is their choice. They are not Russian.

Like I said, though...storming a school and taking children hostage is by no means in my eye justified.

	04-09-2004 11:57									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Not much actually.

**clap, clap, clap** And that, my good Sprayber, was the point I was striving to drive home. If people want answers, then it's probably best to *combine* some of what the "ivory tower" types want with what the "shoot first ask questions later" types want. Neither can stand on their own two feet alone, IMO.

Complex? Definitely. But whoever said life was supposed to be easy?

Gatekeeper

	04-09-2004 12:01									#86
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Chechen separatists= Muslim fanatics

Same sources of funding
Same ideology
Same men (10 arabs among terrorists who captured the school)
Same goals
Same means
.

If we give them independency we'll have one more state of terror.

	04-09-2004 12:16									#87
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quote: However, I think that if the Chechens are fighting for their own people and nation, I support them, even if they want to create a theocracy...it should be up to them to govern themselves, if that is their choice.

Theocracy is not about governing themselves, it is about a small group of people imposing their ideology on the rest.

	04-09-2004 13:00									#88
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Muxec, what is their common goal? To spread Islam? They don't have to do it that way. All they have to do is call everyone racist and hurt their feelings. A huge high class hotel in here just took the bibles out of their rooms, because, well, they got feedback and muslims didn't like it.



What a bunch of PC pussies. And what a bunch of weak hearted people, when this hurts their feelings. I'd put it in the words of Eddie Murphy 'and if you don't like it, get the **** out!'

	04-09-2004 13:39									#89
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OK, I'll tell you a story about religious fanatics.

My best friend when he was 15 years old met a 14-years-old girl from family of Jwish religious fanatics. She accidentially took a breath of freedom.
She loved music but her parents said that it's evil so she listened secretly. SHe desired to study sciences but her parents said it's evil. She desired to become an atheist but she feared that her parents will physically kill her for that. My friend met her several times and they also SMSed as well. My friend was shocked.

One day she stoped replying on SMSes of my friend... He never saw her again...

	04-09-2004 14:13									#90
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Well, they haven't changed much in the past 15 years...why should I trust them to do "the right thing" now?

Let´see... 15 years ago it was 1989. They even weren´t Russians at that time. They were still soviets. They DO HAVE CHANGED a lot since then. And for the better.

Of course, there is still a lot to do. But due to the terrible situation that the country was when the USSR dissapeared, the fact that the current situation is much better can be considered a little miracle.