04-09-2004 14:20									#91
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous However, I think that if the Chechens are fighting for their own people and nation, I support them, even if they want to create a theocracy...it should be up to them to govern themselves, if that is their choice. They are not Russian.

One thing is clear. The 10 arabian terrorists were NOT Russians. Are they also fighting for their own country? Because then, Putin was right when he said that Chechenia is not a Russian domestic problem, but just another manifestation of the global terrorism attack. They are just using the victimism to gain support from the public opinion. Ironically, Russia is suffering the tactics that the USSR created.

Second thing: Chechenia has voted a president that is pro-Russian. Does it mean that the majority of Chechen people are not Chechen? That they are mistaken? That Russian government brainwashed them?

Third thing: Even if the majority of Chechenia wanted to become independent, which is not true, when you are breaking a country, you must take into account ALL THE PEOPLE affected by that situation. And in such theoretical situation, the Russians would have something to say,

	04-09-2004 15:36									#92
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Sky News says 322 dead.

	04-09-2004 15:50									#93
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322? Is this confirmed? Are they expecting this figure to go up or be more of a final estimate?

In any case... there's not much you can say about it.. it's beyond words.

	04-09-2004 15:50									#94
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322? Is this confirmed? Are they expecting this figure to go up or be more of a final estimate?

In any case... there's not much you can say about it.. it's beyond words.

	04-09-2004 15:55									#95
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Given the kinds of injuries, the toll is certain to rise.

	04-09-2004 16:07									#96
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322 confirmed by officials. However, there are reports that the real figure is approximately 600 .

The security forces prevent doctors from having any contact. They're not being let out of hospitals, their cell phones have been taken away. One doctor managed to contact the media and says that there are more wounded and in a worse state than the government currently admits.

Something else, the terrorists had heavy weaponry, ammo and explosives hidden in the school before they took it. So it all was there for some time, and they got it all after taking hostages.

	04-09-2004 16:23									#97
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Sadly i'd not be surprised if somebody from local police helped terrorists.. Policeman who receives monthly salary of 30$ can be easily bribed.

	04-09-2004 16:24									#98
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The "Chechens" as they are referred to here numerous times actually consist of a large number of groups, most of whom don't get along too well with eachother. You have the separtist nationalist, the jihadis, random bandits and organised crime all sticking their oar in. Some are violent, some are not, some use terrorism and kidnapping, others do not. So tarring all the groups with the same jihadi brush doesn't do the real situation any justice.

	04-09-2004 16:44									#99
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue The "Chechens" as they are referred to here numerous times actually consist of a large number of groups, most of whom don't get along too well with eachother. You have the separtist nationalist, the jihadis, random bandits and organised crime all sticking their oar in. Some are violent, some are not, some use terrorism and kidnapping, others do not. So tarring all the groups with the same jihadi brush doesn't do the real situation any justice.

OK, Imagine a pile of sh*it. Would you separate outer layers that already lost their smell from inner layers?

	04-09-2004 16:52									#100
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So what exactly are you advocating? Genocide?

	04-09-2004 17:09									#101
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The death toll is approaching 400 by now . With the many wounded in bad condition and possibly many still under rubble of the school, it's going to be more.

	04-09-2004 18:16									#102
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Eyewitnesses reported that the bastards were shooting the people who remained inside the school, lying on the floor

	04-09-2004 18:58									#103
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The process of negotiations was strange. 20 hostages were shot in the first two days. But, if there are negotiations, they must be aborted and a storm must commence after terrorists start killing hostages! Whereas the Russians continued negotiating even after terrorists started shooting hostages.

	04-09-2004 19:05									#104
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous I support them, even if they want to create a theocracy...it should be up to them to govern themselves, if that is their choice. They are not Russian.

No theocracies. Religion is the problem.

	04-09-2004 19:12									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Solver The process of negotiations was strange. 20 hostages were shot in the first two days. But, if there are negotiations, they must be aborted and a storm must commence after terrorists start killing hostages! Whereas the Russians continued negotiating even after terrorists started shooting hostages.

Also, from what I understood the Russians didnt plan to storm the building. Literally. They didnt want to do it, which is reasonable, but they also had no detailed plans on how to do it if necessary, which is ****ing stupid.

	04-09-2004 19:14									#106
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Have you heard latest Putin's speech? Not sure it was translated correctly but it sucks. He tried not to mention that the terrorism is international, he said that it's internal, domestic problems of Russia. He did not mention international effort, he did not mention what countries exactly show that terrorism is a long war...

	04-09-2004 19:18									#107
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The enormous amounts of weapons and explosives found indicate that they probably smuggled it into the school earlier this summer

	04-09-2004 19:23									#108
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Chechen seperatists do not, in theory, equal muslim fanatics. I believe that their supposed battle for a seperate Chechen nation is a good thing. What you, muxec, imply is that the Chechen fighters fight only for an Islamist nation, which you as a member of the nation of Israel oppose. However, I think that if the Chechens are fighting for their own people and nation, I support them, even if they want to create a theocracy...it should be up to them to govern themselves, if that is their choice. They are not Russian. Like I said, though...storming a school and taking children hostage is by no means in my eye justified.

What, in principle, do you have against democracy and the rule of law? These people are fighting against a democratic government in Chechnya just as much as they are fighting Russian troops who are supporting that fledgeling government.

When these same folks were in power just a few years ago, they launched attacks into neighboring Russian states in an attempt to spread their Wahabbi sect. These are the people you support?

Do you similarly support al Qaida in Iraq?

	04-09-2004 19:25									#109
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue The "Chechens" as they are referred to here numerous times actually consist of a large number of groups, most of whom don't get along too well with eachother. You have the separtist nationalist, the jihadis, random bandits and organised crime all sticking their oar in. Some are violent, some are not, some use terrorism and kidnapping, others do not. So tarring all the groups with the same jihadi brush doesn't do the real situation any justice.

Some also appear to be al Qaida of Arab descent.

	04-09-2004 19:27									#110
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quote: The enormous amounts of weapons and explosives found indicate that they probably smuggled it into the school earlier this summer

And means that some of Russian officials helped to the terrorists. Bush was right saying:

quote: Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.

	04-09-2004 19:48									#111
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Chechen seperatists do not, in theory, equal muslim fanatics. I believe that their supposed battle for a seperate Chechen nation is a good thing. What you, muxec, imply is that the Chechen fighters fight only for an Islamist nation, which you as a member of the nation of Israel oppose. However, I think that if the Chechens are fighting for their own people and nation, I support them, even if they want to create a theocracy...it should be up to them to govern themselves, if that is their choice. They are not Russian. Like I said, though...storming a school and taking children hostage is by no means in my eye justified.

Your theory isn't worth the price of the electrons used to print it. The Chechens had an independent nation just a few years ago, and they promptly proceeded to compete with the Taliban government of Afghanistan for the title of most oppressive Islamic regime. For example, they instituted the death penalty for homosexuality. Furthermore they couldn't contain the urge to expand, so they began invading neighboring republics. Chechen seperatists are for all practical purposes Islamic extremists who will not settle for peace in a world where non-Islamic governments exist.

	04-09-2004 19:52									#112
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quote: Originally posted by muxec And means that some of Russian officials helped to the terrorists. Bush was right saying:

You think they had weapons stashed in the school in advance? Couldn't they have brought their equipment in on a truck? Once they entered the school and cowered the people into staying put they would have had some time, perhaps an hour or so, to move their material into the building. If they left 20 behind to watch the kids they would have had 20 to unload the truck and place the bombs. It wouldn't have taken long.

	04-09-2004 19:56									#113
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At risk of blaming the victim (which, after 9/11, I found out that most people do)...

quote: Sadly i'd not be surprised if somebody from local police helped terrorists.. Policeman who receives monthly salary of 30$ can be easily bribed.

This is very true. Also, it appears that corruption and bad discipline is rife within the Russian military, which allows bribery at checkpoints, among other things. In this respect, Colon's criticisms are very fair. This is all the responsibility of those at top.

Man, this sucks. Really sucks.

	04-09-2004 20:01									#114
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What is the international response to this attack? I can assure you that Americans are horrified and outraged, but I wonder what the sentiment is in the EU and in the middle east?

	04-09-2004 20:02									#115
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DanS, if you had children and low salary you would probably do the same. These policemen are victims of Russian pseudo-democratic regime

	04-09-2004 20:04									#116
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Hey, I agree with you (I wouldn't use the word "democracy" in the same sentence as "Russia"), although this does feel like blaming the victim. The enemy gets a vote by what it does, after all. This particular enemy decides it's a good thing to massacre 600 children.

	04-09-2004 20:13									#117
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Dr. Strangelove, I suspect the Europeans are thinking hard about their former pro-"rebel" bias. Europeans turned against Russia when they brutally assaulted Grozny. They will now turn even more against the "rebels" because of this attrocity.

	04-09-2004 20:17									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What is the international response to this attack? I can assure you that Americans are horrified and outraged, but I wonder what the sentiment is in the EU and in the middle east?

I don't think Americans are that outraged. Why? Because media hasn't told us to be. It's interesting to me.

	04-09-2004 20:19									#119
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Dr S.: Oh, no we where all dancing in the streets over this!

As a matter of fact, as I have my gf over in the US, there's a possibility for me to make some comparisons, and it seems like all this has gotten more coverage and reactions (and no pro-reactons obviously) in Swedish media than in the US.

	04-09-2004 20:24									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Dr S.: Oh, no we where all dancing in the streets over this! As a matter of fact, as I have my gf over in the US, there's a possibility for me to make some comparisons, and it seems like all this has gotten more coverage and reactions (and no pro-reactons obviously) in Swedish media than in the US.

Well, it's true that the Republican Convention is hogging the limelight. I'm surprised that Bush hasn't made a statement, especially when you consider that it would be an excellent time to plug the war on terror.