04-09-2004 20:26									#121
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Dr S.: Oh, no we where all dancing in the streets over this! As a matter of fact, as I have my gf over in the US, there's a possibility for me to make some comparisons, and it seems like all this has gotten more coverage and reactions (and no pro-reactons obviously) in Swedish media than in the US.

That wasn't meant to be a Euro-bashing troll. I'm truly interested in what Europeans think of this attack, what it means to them and what they think should be done about it.

	04-09-2004 20:29									#122
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia as usual, very few here can understand complex issues and parallels as demonstrated with what the fabulous emperor is saying. and dont say targeting civilians is different -remember when the bombs exploded on the spanish buses and everyone jumped on the ETA and called them 'just like al qaeda.' the eta doesnt target random civilians. im not saying what they are doing is right, im just saying there is a difference between what they do and what al qaeda does. its a question of degrees.

Now wait a minute, I am contesting his point that these are people that are just resisting Russian oppression.

	04-09-2004 20:33									#123
	Tired of ads?

The RNC is over, but now the hurricane is the biggest story even though the death toll has risen. Not that the RNC should have been a bigger story. Just a bunch talk after all. BS at that mostly.

	04-09-2004 20:33									#124
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: I'm surprised that Bush hasn't made a statement, especially when you consider that it would be an excellent time to plug the war on terror.

He's made multiple statements about it, but hasn't used it as a campaign prop.

	04-09-2004 20:34									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yuh, they had their chance, and proved that they were unable to live in peace with their neighbors.

(Replying to Whoha's post)

	04-09-2004 20:34									#126
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove That wasn't meant to be a Euro-bashing troll. I'm truly interested in what Europeans think of this attack, what it means to them and what they think should be done about it.

I didn't think it was either, I just don't feel like a need a reason to be sarcastic.

Well, I'm gonna go and look around in our pravda and other papers to see what they say about it and come back to you.

	04-09-2004 20:35									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If Chechnian so-called "rebels" are freedom fighter... Than Ku-Klux-Klan only resisted the black opression.

	04-09-2004 20:40									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by muxec If Chechnian so-called "rebels" are freedom fighter... Than Ku-Klux-Klan only resisted the black opression.

Yeah, well I'm from Lynchburg and I know some special knots that just might come in handy with these folks.

	04-09-2004 20:54									#129
	Tired of ads?

I guess I gotta admit I didn't know much about the Chechen resistence. While I still support such resistence, these people do seem like shitheads. I still can't imagine that all, or even most, of the people who want to be a seperate nation from Russia are fanatics.

Its still no excuse for the human rights abuses made by Russia, nor the supposed genocide called for by muxec. Exterminating an entire race of people just because you feel threatened by a few is just wrong.

	04-09-2004 21:00									#130
	Tired of ads?

Dr. Strangelove, I've read a few editorials and tried to summarize them below. it seems like they, from left to right, are keeping the same line as most europeans seems to do against terrorism in Israel or against the US; The hardline often leads to even more terrorism in the long run, and a change of direction is needed. Or from an american point of view; they are all a bunch of pinko treehuggers. I must however add that they all show no form of understanding whatsoever for the terrorists.

Dagens Nyheter:
(biggest morning paper, center-right)
Says that there's actually some truth to Putin's claim that this is part of international terrorism, but that it's more complex than that as there doesn't seem to be any coherent structure amoungst chechnian guerilla-groups. While they see a new generation of leaders inspired by Wahhabism they also point to the bloody history of chechnia. The author of their analysis does not in any way defend the acts of the terrorists but also points out that as the atrocities against civilian chechnians has became worse over time, so has also the acts of the terrorists. or, to put in other words; it seems like this journalist argues that violence breeds more violence. The papers editorial goes on in the same fashion.

Aftonbladet:
(biggest tabloid paper, however swedish tabloids are unique as they have 'serious' editorials and culture papers. Social democratic)
The editorial today thinks that the horrific act might give more support for Putins hard line against chechnial seperatists, but also thinks that it'll lower the general support for him. It doesn't seem like Putin can guarantee the safety of the russian people. The paper thinks that even if Putin would have liked to talk to someone on the other side, there doesn't seem to be anyone to talk to. The paper is concerned that this will make the US even more quiet about the tragic situation inside chechnia, but also argues that this might be an opening for international involvement in Chechnia.

Svenska Dagbladet:
(the second morning paper. Right wing)
Yesterdays editorial argues that it has been the hardline politics of Putin that have closed out moderate forces from an open debate and lead the conflict into the hands of terrorists. The author believes that it's up to Putin to make something that can win the hearts and minds of the chechnian population, and in this way stop an end to the breeding ground for terrorism and radicalism. However, he's sceptical that Putin would be the man to do this. The only possibilty is international pressure that would make Russia deal with the chechnian question and break the deadlock where war has become the normal situation in the caucasus.

	04-09-2004 21:01									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: With the outbreak of the Second Russo-Chechen War in 1999, however, the differences between the secularized Chechen highlanders and the fundamentalist Pashtun-Taliban were overlooked (or deliberately blurred) by Russian leadership. Paranoid Russian officials saw the August-September 1999 invasions of the Russian province of Dagestan by Shamil Basaev, Emir Khattab, and Dagestani Wahhabis as a "Caucasian front" of a much-hyped trans-Eurasian united jihad that was said to be directed from the pariah Taliban state. In particular, Kremlin officials claimed that the 1999 "Chechen" invasion of Dagestan (which was actually condemned by Chechen President Maskhadov) represented the western pincer of an extremist front that stretched across Eurasia, from the Caucasus to Uzbekistan Russian conspiracy theorists found sufficient grounds for suspecting the Taliban-sponsored Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU) raiders, who in 1999 were creating chaos in Central Asia, and the radical "Chechen" invaders of Dagestan. In Uzbekistan at this time Islamic militants belonging to Juma Namangani's IMU had begun a series of invasions designed to undermine the regime of President Islam Karimov. [3] The Russian government felt that the IMU's raids resembled the incursions from Chechnya into Dagestan. Most alarmingly for the Kremlin, the 1999 IMU forays into Uzbekistan and the Batken region of Kyrgyzstan were launched from Taliban territory in the Mazar-i Sharif area of northern Afghanistan, where Juma Namangani's militant Islamists had found sanctuary. It should be clearly stated that there is no evidence linking the August-September 1999 "Chechen" invasion of Dagestan to Namangani's 1999 IMU razzias into Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. While there is abundant evidence that in 1999 the IMU merged with al Qaeda's Afghan-based 055 International Brigade (the 3,000 man Arab, Uzbek, and Pakistani-dominated fighting wing of al Qaeda that was increasingly used by the Taliban in its spring offensives against the Northern Alliance), there is no evidence that Chechens served in this fanatical jihadi shock brigade.

	04-09-2004 21:02									#132
	Tired of ads?

quote: Additionally, the regrouping Chechen defenders had no reason to abandon the defense of their homes and families to fight for the Taliban. Similarly, by the time of the Second Russo-Chechen War, the Chechen fighters--who had successfully stormed such Russian-occupied urban areas as Grozny and Gudermes in the First Russo-Chechen War--would have had little to learn militarily from the unskilled Afghan-Talibs (the anti-Soviet Afghan mujahideen failed to take Jalalabad in their only effort to storm an urban area and the Taliban resorted to bribery to achieve most of their victories). As events demonstrate, the increasingly isolated Taliban regime could offer the encircled and diplomatically isolated Chechen Republic of Ichkeria token assistance. Notably, in January of 2000 a radical Islamist opponent of Maskhadov, named Zelimkhan Yanderbiev (interim Chechen President in 1996 who had severed all ties with Maskhadov), and five aides made an unofficial visit to Pakistan and Afghanistan seeking support for the increasingly desperate Chechen secessionist cause. In Pakistan, Yanderbiev collected US$200,000 from the radical Jamaat Islami and Jamaat Ulema e Islam organizations, which were also known to have funded Harkat ul Mujahideen military activities in Kashmir. Most fortuitously for the Kremlin spin-masters, on January 16, 2000, the rogue emissary Yanderbiev also visited Mullah Omar in Afghanistan. There, Yanderbiev, who was not operating in any official capacity as a Chechen representative, went though the almost comical process of receiving official "recognition" of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria from the equally isolated Taliban regime. [4] The Kremlin perceived this symbolic gesture as "proof" of links between its Chechen opponents and the pariah Taliban regime. One account maintains that Russian President Vladimir Putin "began to see Chechens everywhere" at this stage. By the summer of 2000 the Kremlin was even threatening to bomb the Taliban regime with TU-22M Backfire Bombers and SCUD missiles in retaliation for its supposed support for the Chechen resistance. [5] Kremlin spokespersons also spoke of a counterintuitive "exchange program" that saw "hundreds" of Afghans make their way to Chechnya to assist the Chechen rebels while "hundreds" of ex-Soviet Chechens traveled in the other direction, to Afghanistan, to hatch plans with Mullah Omar's Pashtun-speaking tribal fanatics. In response to the increasingly shrill rhetoric about Chechens in Afghanistan coming from the Kremlin, Taliban spokesmen adamantly refuted the claims that there were any Chechens in the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. A top ranking Taliban official declared: "There are no training camps for Chechens or any one else. We challenge them to identify even one." [6] If this statement were not emphatic enough, the Taliban foreign minister, Wakil Ahmed Mutawakil, declared that there were not only no Chechen "bases" in Afghanistan, but no Chechens whatsoever, not even diplomats, in his country. [7] When informed of Yanderbiev's provocative unofficial visit, an equally disgusted Chechen President Maskhadov declared from his hideout in the mountains of southern Chechnya: "We didn't ask for any military help from anyone, including Afghanistan, because there isn't such a necessity. We have enough forces and means to sustain a full partisan war with the Russian army. There are no Chechen bases in Afghanistan, nor in Yemen. We don't need any bases, because during the previous war Russian generals taught our people how to fight." [8]

	04-09-2004 21:04									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Prior to 9-11 the Clinton and Bush administrations, as well as other NATO governments, dismissed the Kremlin's rhetoric concerning the existence of Chechens in Afghanistan and Afghans in Chechnya as so much Soviet-style "agitprop" (agitation-propaganda, the specialty of Putin's former employers, the KGB). And thus things may well have remained but for the fact that the al Qaeda parasite "organization" launched a stunning suicide attack on the United States of America from the Taliban host state on September 11, 2001. As a reeling Bush administration focused the full might of Centcom on the task of destroying the Taliban regime, Russia's permission was required for basing rights in the "Blizhnee Zarubezhe" of Central Asia (the so-called "Near Abroad," i.e., the former Soviet republics of Central Asia that are considered to be well within Moscow's sphere of military/political influence). In the aftermath of 9-11, Putin wholeheartedly sided with the U.S.-led Coalition and the Russian military gave its permission for the basing of U.S. forces on its doorstep (most notably in Karimov's Uzbekistan, which was used as a springboard for inserting U.S. special forces and airborne troops into northern Afghanistan). It was at this time that the White House began referring to the Chechens as "al Qaeda terrorists" and declared the anti-Karimov IMU (which had no record of anti-Americanism) a "Foreign Terrorist Organization." Stunned Chechens (and IMU extremist fighters from Uzbekistan, who were soon to find themselves in the U.S. cross-hairs in northern Afghanistan) assumed that a quid pro quo had been granted to the Kremlin (and to Uzbek President Karimov) by the Bush administration, which had once looked on their separatist cause with sympathy (see part one of this series). In response to this green light from the Bush administration for stepped up attacks on "Islamic extremists" in Chechnya, Russian Federation troops accelerated their zachistki ("cleansing" round-up operations) in "terrorist" villages throughout Chechnya. In other words, in the immediate months after 9-11 the Chechen resistance found itself pressed as never before due to the fact that the West had given the Kremlin carte blanche to ratchet up its ongoing war against Chechen separatism under the guise of playing its role in the war against global al Qaeda terrorism. At this time of elevated Russian offensives in Chechnya that Western media (which had previously depicted the Chechens as victims of Russian war crimes) began accusing the Chechens of being in league with the Taliban. In a short time the Western media surpassed the Kremlin in its casual linkage of the Chechen highlanders to the doomed Taliban regime. It soon became an article of faith even among the U.S. military in Afghanistan that (along with the Uzbeks of the IMU, Pakistanis, and Arabs) the Chechens were a vital component of al Qaeda's tough 055 Brigade. The U.S. military began uncritically to produce reports such as the one below: They have been the stuff of nightmares for Russian troops and now U.S. forces face the prospect of trying to combat Chechen fighters in Afghanistan who have thrown their lot in with Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network. "There are a hell of a lot of them and they sure know how to fight," one senior American officer said after the conclusion of the recent offensive Operation Anaconda against diehard fighters in eastern Paktia province. The man who led the offensive said that a large proportion of the fighters who chose to fight to the death were non-Afghans. But Chechen separatists, who have been involved in a fierce war for independence from Russia for the past twenty-nine months, appear to make up the largest contingent of al Qaeda's foreign legion...Following the downfall of his Taliban protectors in Afghanistan, there has been speculation that Osama may now try to seek refuge in Chechnya. "We know the history of the Chechens. They are good fighters and they are very brutal," Hagenbeck said. The general said he has heard of reports out of the Pentagon that a unit of 100-150 Chechens had moved into southern Afghanistan. [9] Chechens were accused of leading the Taliban's defense of Kunduz in northern Afghanistan (sixty Chechens were said to have thrown themselves into the Amu Darya River when this city fell to the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance) and "hundreds" of Chechen "die-hard Taliban fanatics" were said to be fighting in scores of battlefronts throughout Afghanistan. This author has carefully collated these unsubstantiated reports of Chechens fighting on behalf of the Taliban regime against American forces and has come to a stunning numeric conclusion. If the Western media sources, which specifically speak of "dozens," "hundreds," and "thousands" of Chechens fighting against Coalition forces in Tora Bora, Shah-i Kot, Kunduz, Mazar-i Sharif, and even Kandahar, Afghanistan, are to be believed, then there were considerably more Chechens protecting the Pashtun-Taliban thugocracy in distant Afghanistan than defending their own villages, homes, and people in Chechnya. Despite a veritable barrage of such accounts, a barrage that continues to this day, not one Chechen has been apprehended by U.S. and Coalition forces in Afghanistan or Pakistan. In my August 2003 discussions with General Dostum, the Northern Alliance general responsible for the destruction of the 055 al Qaeda Brigade in Mazar-i Sharif and Kunduz, he admitted that his anti-Taliban forces had not uncovered a single Chechen among the foreign fighters subsequently shipped to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, following the November 2001 defeat of the Taliban (although his forces discovered one American, Johnny Walker Lindh, the "American Taliban").

	04-09-2004 21:06									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ned Some also appear to be al Qaida of Arab descent.

I counted them amongst Jihadis. I doubt the secular nationalists want anything to do with these people, who would probably be doing this regardless of what Moscow has done in the past.

	04-09-2004 22:36									#135
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Who cares whether any of them moved to Afghanistan or not? In the late 1990s the Chechen state was ruled by a Taliban like regime. Even if you question how much support they gave to the proxy fighters who invaded Dagestan, you can't ignore their internal human rights violations, like as I mentioned, executing gays. They also removed the civil rights of women and non-Muslims. In fact with regards to their internal policies they marched lock-step with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. The systematic human rights abuses of the Chechen state were recorded in their law books and are a matter of public record. The former Chechen regime had no more legitimacy than the former Taliban regime of Afghanistan.

	04-09-2004 22:40									#136
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Many ethnic Chechens do not want to be separate...

You know, some Osetins want to be separate... And some Tatars want to be separate... And Dagestanians may want to be separate... And some Ingushians want to be separate. Now look at their actions. Dagestanians and Tatars are liberal muslims (although some of them are christian or atheist) (considered as fake muslim by most of the muslim countries). Other nations controlled by Russia are either liberal muslims, christians or atheists. Remember that Russian liberal Islam is considered fake Islam by the must influantial muslim states and communities.

Although Russia is poor country it still gave something to these nation. Electricity and education I'd say.

	04-09-2004 22:48									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Dr. Strangelove, I've read a few editorials and tried to summarize them below. it seems like they, from left to right, are keeping the same line as most europeans seems to do against terrorism in Israel or against the US; The hardline often leads to even more terrorism in the long run, and a change of direction is needed. Or from an american point of view; they are all a bunch of pinko treehuggers. I must however add that they all show no form of understanding whatsoever for the terrorists. Dagens Nyheter: (biggest morning paper, center-right) Says that there's actually some truth to Putin's claim that this is part of international terrorism, but that it's more complex than that as there doesn't seem to be any coherent structure amoungst chechnian guerilla-groups. While they see a new generation of leaders inspired by Wahhabism they also point to the bloody history of chechnia. The author of their analysis does not in any way defend the acts of the terrorists but also points out that as the atrocities against civilian chechnians has became worse over time, so has also the acts of the terrorists. or, to put in other words; it seems like this journalist argues that violence breeds more violence. The papers editorial goes on in the same fashion.

In what way have atrocities aginst Chechens worsened? Have there been any attacks by the RSF since the last elections?

quote: Svenska Dagbladet: (the second morning paper. Right wing) Yesterdays editorial argues that it has been the hardline politics of Putin that have closed out moderate forces from an open debate and lead the conflict into the hands of terrorists. The author believes that it's up to Putin to make something that can win the hearts and minds of the chechnian population, and in this way stop an end to the breeding ground for terrorism and radicalism. However, he's sceptical that Putin would be the man to do this. The only possibilty is international pressure that would make Russia deal with the chechnian question and break the deadlock where war has become the normal situation in the caucasus.

Are they blind to the fact that the terrorists belong to hard core factions that will accept nothing less than the victory of Islam over all other peoples in the region?
Was the government of the former Islamist state of Chechnya duly elected or was it self-appointed? Is this the future of the world supported by the so-called humanitarian "socialists" of Sweden? The folks who took over that school would have much less sufferance for :moderates than Putnin.

	04-09-2004 22:50									#138
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by muxec Many ethnic Chechens do not want to be separate... You know, some Osetins want to be separate... And some Tatars want to be separate... And Dagestanians may want to be separate... And some Ingushians want to be separate. Now look at their actions. Dagestanians and Tatars are liberal muslims (although some of them are christian or atheist) (considered as fake muslim by most of the muslim countries). Other nations controlled by Russia are either liberal muslims, christians or atheists. Remember that Russian liberal Islam is considered fake Islam by the must influantial muslim states and communities. Although Russia is poor country it still gave something to these nation. Electricity and education I'd say.

Heck, some Viriginians and some Wyomingers want independence. I don't see euro-socialists wringing their hands over them.

	04-09-2004 22:52									#139
	Support Apolyton

By the way, for those of you talking about Grozny, maybe I should come back with pictures of Najaf, Baghdad, or Falujah. We dropped cruise missles down on a restuarant because we though Saddam was there.

Najaf especially has been blown to shreds. Is that the USA's fault? Or was it the terrorists who sought refuge there?

Civilans have been accidentally killed in Iraq in large numbers. No professional soldier in his right mind would do this. But it happens.

These aren't my accounts. They are from some of the Marines who have returned home from there.

So anyone who is criticising Putin and Russia needs to criticize Bush and the USA.

Does Russia do things in a way that would be more prone to killing civilians? Probably?

But we are doing the same thing. Somone said on the radio, a 500 pound "precision" bomb is still a 500 pound bomb.

Last edited by Ted Striker on 04-09-2004 at 23:05

	04-09-2004 22:53									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by lightblue The "Chechens" as they are referred to here numerous times actually consist of a large number of groups, most of whom don't get along too well with eachother. You have the separtist nationalist, the jihadis, random bandits and organised crime all sticking their oar in. Some are violent, some are not, some use terrorism and kidnapping, others do not. So tarring all the groups with the same jihadi brush doesn't do the real situation any justice.

EXACTLY

Well said.

	04-09-2004 22:54									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Who cares whether any of them moved to Afghanistan or not? In the late 1990s the Chechen state was ruled by a Taliban like regime. Even if you question how much support they gave to the proxy fighters who invaded Dagestan, you can't ignore their internal human rights violations, like as I mentioned, executing gays. They also removed the civil rights of women and non-Muslims. In fact with regards to their internal policies they marched lock-step with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. The systematic human rights abuses of the Chechen state were recorded in their law books and are a matter of public record. The former Chechen regime had no more legitimacy than the former Taliban regime of Afghanistan.

	04-09-2004 22:55									#142
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey, don't ask me. I just read the stuff!

1) No, I don't know how the atrocities aginst Chechens worsened, I myself was clearly under the impression that most of the opposition was smashed by now and as a result, violence against civilians had dropped considerably.

2) No, they are not exacly 'blind' to that. they are just of the opinion that the hard line against chechnian seperatists in general has only lead to the creation of a new generation of islamic fundamentalists at the expense of any more moderate seperatists.

	04-09-2004 23:25									#143
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I believe that there is a segment of the muslim community that is about as rational as Osama himsellf. Let's see, here's a guy whose home country, Saudi Arabia, is governed by a group he doesn't like because they pander too much to non-Muslims. This pandering consists of the most strict legal code in the world, and includes severe restrictions upon where the non-Muslims can live and travel. A dictator, Saddam Hussein, whom this man loathes even more than the government of his home country invades a neighbor of his home country and also makes threats against his home country. His home country enlists the aid of the only people able to off set the threat of the dictator, the United States and its allies. Is Osama grateful? Heck no, he's livid with anger. Not that the allies usurped the government of his country. Heck no, they were sequestered off like mere slaves. Not that Osama would have been keen upon surrendering his home country to Hussein. Not that any of these infidels ever came within 100 miles of his precious Mecca. God only knows how outraged the Muslim world would be if any non-Muslim nation ever discriminated aginst Muslims in such a fashion. Since then however Osama has been conducting a jihad against the US.....for saving his country!

You're probably going to say that this is an overly simplified analysis of the situation, but who cares? The fact that these factions are motivated by such delusional ideas, even if their delusions are not their sole motivation, means that making peace with them will not be possible by rational negotiated means. There will be peace only when the rest of the Muslim world community takes reponsibility for them and takes whatever steps are necessary to neutralize them. They are going to have to have the courage to openly oppose them, to censor the hate talk, to counter-educate the young, to isolate the bigots, and if necessary to use force.

	04-09-2004 23:28									#144
	Tired of ads?

Once again, well said Doc.

	04-09-2004 23:33									#145
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

.

Attachment: putin.jpg
This has been downloaded 59 time(s).

	05-09-2004 00:17									#146
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by muxec Chechen separatists= Muslim fanatics Same sources of funding Same ideology Same men (10 arabs among terrorists who captured the school) Same goals Same means . If we give them independency we'll have one more state of terror.

Bravo. Very deep analise of situation
Truth is that after so many fight against Russians, Chechenians become more and more despaired. But You can't just blame them for it. Truth is that after regaining the independance, the state would probably have problems with terrorism, but that's no reason not to give it to them. It's fight against Russia that encourages terrorists, just like fight against Israel ecourages Palestinians to terrorism. Giving them independance would probably mean decreasing of terrorism, not the other way round.
Israel and Russia don't fight terrorism. They fight against nations which, also because of lack of another way of harming the enemy, chose this way. It's a difference.
Yes, Palestinians and Chechens deserve comdemnation for using this way of fight. At least in Israel, where free press exists, they could get world attention in another way. But still, terrorism isn't the only problem here. Terrorism is a problem, but also is an indication of a problem. When they do not make terrorist attacks, Chechens are forgotten by the rest of the world. You can't just fight terrorism, You have to fight the root of the terrorism too, and it is Russian occupation and brutal politics in Chechenia.

	05-09-2004 00:20									#147
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I switched my flag and location when terrorists knocked down the Russian planes. It doesn't seem as though I'll need to change back for a while.

I can't express how disgusted I am with these terrorist scum. To go in and murder so many children shows them to barbarian inhumane evil scum. Truly, the Jihadists are the sucsessors to the fascists of the 40's as the greatest threat to civilization and humanity and need to be crushed.

	05-09-2004 00:24									#148
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Anthem of the Russian Federation (English translation) Music by Alexander Alexandrov Words by Sergei Mikhalkov 1st stanza: Russia, our holy country! Russia, our beloved country! A mighty will, a great glory, Are your inheritance for all time! Refrain: Be glorious, our free Fatherland! Eternal union of fraternal peoples, Common wisdom given by our forebears, Be glorious, our country! We are proud of you! 2nd stanza: From the southern seas to the polar region Spread our forests and fields. You are unique in the world, inimitable, Native land protected by God! 3dr stanza: Wide spaces for dreams and for living Are opened for us by the coming years Faithfulness to our country gives us strength Thus it was, so it is and always will be!

	05-09-2004 00:27									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Truly, the Jihadists are the sucsessors to the fascists of the 40's as the greatest threat to civilization and humanity and need to be crushed.

Yep, and some here seem to support independence for them. No ****ing way!

	05-09-2004 00:47									#150
	Got spare money?

Read my post. It's not Jihadists the demand independance, but Chechens. Part of them is jihadists, just like part of Saudis or part of citizens of Iraq and part of any state with Muslim population. Do You wish to take independance from all of them?