01-10-2004 18:29									#151
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Did anyone notice that twice kerry said that we failed to secure Iraq's nuclear facilities? What facilities was he talking about? I thought Iraq no longer had a nuclear program. Overall, Bush did a good job of staying on message and delivering his main argument clearly. But Bush should have responded more to Kerry's attacks. Kerry's claim that we outsourced the attack on Tora Bora was not accurate. Bush should have responded to that by explaining that we did have special forces heavily involved in Tora Bora but we also involved native fighters because it is their land, they know the terrain best.

I have no idea why Bush should have to explain tactical level decisions of commanders in the field. That should not even be subject to this debate except for that misanthropic Moore and the recent statements of Ted "the Swimmer" Kennedy.

	01-10-2004 18:39									#152
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A reputable Australian straw poll gave it 67% to Kerry to 13% Bush, 20% undecided.

That result probably reflects just how little respect Bush has in Australia, and more widely internationally. A point Kerry made repeatedly.

	01-10-2004 18:40									#153
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I stopped watching and went to bed after the nuclear proliferation response came out from Kerry. Having written a book on that subject, Kerry just completely whupped ass on that question, and Bush's response was so feeble that I couldn't keep watching.

I don't think there was a huge difference in it overall, but Kerry edged it on what I saw.

	01-10-2004 18:41									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse A reputable Australian straw poll gave it 67% to Kerry to 13% Bush, 20% undecided. That result probably reflects just how little respect Bush has in Australia, and more widely internationally. A point Kerry made repeatedly.

What is the main beef Aussies have with Bush?

	01-10-2004 18:42									#155
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hmmm, some would say worse but I think he's seen as stubborn and a risk taker.

	01-10-2004 18:43									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I stopped watching and went to bed after the nuclear proliferation response came out from Kerry. Having written a book on that subject, Kerry just completely whupped ass on that question, and Bush's response was so feeble that I couldn't keep watching. I don't think there was a huge difference in it overall, but Kerry edged it on what I saw.

Gibsie, what you think Kerry's proposal to dump the six party talks in favor of bilateral negotiations between the United States North Korea where everything was on the table including the 1953 armistice agreement?

	01-10-2004 18:44									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse hmmm, some would say worse but I think he's seen as stubborn and a risk taker.

Some would say steadfast and bold.

	01-10-2004 18:45									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have no idea why Bush should have to explain tactical level decisions of commanders in the field. That should not even be subject to this debate except for that misanthropic Moore and the recent statements of Ted "the Swimmer" Kennedy.

You are right. Bush should not have to defend tactical command decisions. But, when you do not respond to an attack, people will assume it is true. By not responding to Kerry's attack, people might assume that Bush failed in Tora Bora.

Bush should have said: "No, we did not outsource the attack on Tora Bora. US and allied elite special forces were heavily involved in that operation. Furthermore, afghan fighters have a stake in defending their land and they know the difficult terrain best. It is sound military strategy to employ forces who know the terrain best and know how to fight the enemy. So, our military commanders recommended that we involve afghan fighters in the operation. I trust the judgement of the military commanders in the field. They know the best way to wage war. But how can my opponent claim that we need more allied forces to share the burden in Iraq and yet claim that in Afghanistan we should not have involved other forces?"

	01-10-2004 18:46									#159
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And this flip flop business - the Bush camp is trying to make a virtue out of not adjusting policy to suit changing circumstances.

	01-10-2004 18:48									#160
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Very, good, Diplomat. A simpler answer by Bush is that he would stand by his commanders in the field while Kerry would publicly attack them and undermine our troops' morale.

	01-10-2004 18:50									#161
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quote: Some would say steadfast and bold.

Pretty words, but think about what they mean? Who else was steadfast and bold from history, as opposed to flexible? Hitler, Stalin, Ivan the Terrible, Bloody Mary, the list goes on...

	01-10-2004 18:50									#162
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Yeah, if Kerry's so well-versed on nuclear proliferation issues, then why were his answers about the North Korean and Iranian nuclear programs so ignorant and misleading?

	01-10-2004 18:50									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse And this flip flop business - the Bush camp is trying to make a virtue out of not adjusting policy to suit changing circumstances.

Horse, the problem is that Kerry changed his position due to the Dean candidacy succeeding.

	01-10-2004 18:50									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Gibsie, what you think Kerry's proposal to dump the six party talks in favor of bilateral negotiations between the United States North Korea where everything was on the table including the 1953 armistice agreement?

I don't know, but the current system clearly has not worked, so maybe it's time to take on a new direction. After all, you wouldn't have been happy to keep to the status quo in Iraq if Saddam Hussein was genuinely working towards nuclear weapons, would you?

	01-10-2004 18:52									#165
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Bush was clear and forceful on defending the United States, especially the first time that he said all of his canned stuff. His style will not play well overseas and with partisan democrats, but plays very well with his base. I don't know what it will do to the undecideds. I guess the undecideds are a hodgepodge.

I thought Bush owned the first part of the debate, but maybe that's entirely because he was speaking my language.

	01-10-2004 18:52									#166
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But, the NK's didn't abide the Clinton deal. Why shouldn't we get the Chinese involved so that Dear Leader will have to answer to his bosses in Peking if he cheats?

	01-10-2004 18:54									#167
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Bush was clear and forceful on defending the United States, especially the first time that he said all of his canned stuff. His style will not play well overseas and with partisan democrats, but plays very well with his base. I don't know what it will do to the undecideds. I guess the undecideds are a hodgepodge.

I think he will lose the undecideds who watched the debate solely due to his demeanor.

	01-10-2004 18:59									#168
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I think Kerry used the "outsourcing" comment to use that word, which seems to be one of the main issues people in the US have wrt the economy.

	01-10-2004 19:03									#169
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Lightblue, thanks for the prompt. Now I understand Kerry's Iraq policy: Outsource everything to the French and Germans.

	01-10-2004 19:05									#170
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I watched only the lat 5 minutes, since the movie I was watching ended. Kerry gave a better closing than Bush.

	01-10-2004 19:16									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Aaaaaah, finally www.factcheck.org has an article up. Good look at BS that both participants of the debate spewed. I love this website its great to have a source that will call BS BS in a media climate that increasingly just presents both sides and doesn't bother to do any real digging: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=271

On CNN, some of the anaylsts did some of their own fact-checking right there on television, immediately after the debate.

	01-10-2004 19:18									#172
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I thought Bush owned the first part of the debate, but maybe that's entirely because he was speaking my language.

. . . . . so you're a hopless, delusional nutcase.

	01-10-2004 20:01									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Do tell me why and how?

You'd have to fully grasp genetics and heritary bloodlines............


Seriously, it was very obvious Kerry prepared for the Debate over the last few weeks. What Bush did, I don't know but he obviously had no idea this debate was comming up, I guess he thought he was showing up to a fundraiser and suprise! There was a podium and the Democratic candidate.

He sucked. Kerry looked "presidential" with good poise, distinct, clear answers (even though he STILL hasn't given us any freaking plan or strategy yet ), and organized.

Bush looked lost, confused, and somewhat mishapen in the style of Quasamoto. "I must ring the bells, I must ring the bells.........."

I'm still voting for Bush though. He may be an anti-French warmongering hunchback, but he's my anti-French warmongering hunchback.

	01-10-2004 20:04									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Lightblue, thanks for the prompt. Now I understand Kerry's Iraq policy: Outsource everything to the French and Germans.

So if Kerry gets elected we will have officially outsourced the Presidency.

	01-10-2004 20:13									#175
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In the CNN internet poll of who won the debate, after 440,000 votes, Kerry leads with 70%, Bush 23% and the "Even" choice 7%.

Yup, those lefty biased CNN readers!

	01-10-2004 20:17									#176
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If you look at the gallup poll taken after the debate http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/....aspx?ci=13237, its pretty clear that the independent voters thought Kerry did a better job in the "debate" by virtue of "expressing himself more clearly". Given Bushs less than stellar record as public speaker this is kinda a no brainer.

On the other hand the same voters said Bush beat Kerry
in terms of: "Agreed with you more on the issues you care about" "Was more believable" "Was more likable" "Demonstrated he is tough enough for the job".

Bush also wins by a wide margin in terms of "Who do you trust more to handle the responsibilities of commander in chief of the military" and " regardless of which presidential candidate you support, please tell me if you think John Kerry or George W. Bush would better handle the situation in Iraq".

Kerry has no credibility on the issues that americans care about. He's gonna lose big.

	01-10-2004 20:23									#177
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Look at the response Gore got on similar questions. They are invariably worse. Kerry's gonna win big.

	01-10-2004 20:24									#178
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Bush should have taken a nap. He was obviously tired.

	01-10-2004 20:25									#179
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The key part of the Gallup poll:

More favorable
Less favorable
Not changed much
No opinion

Kerry
46%
13
41
*

Bush
21%
17
62
*

That's a 29 point lead that Kerry has over Bush.

	01-10-2004 20:26									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse A reputable Australian straw poll gave it 67% to Kerry to 13% Bush, 20% undecided. That result probably reflects just how little respect Bush has in Australia, and more widely internationally. A point Kerry made repeatedly.

The poll at CTV.ca -- (CTV is the largest privately owned TV network in Canada) had it as follows:

Poll Result

Who do you think won the U.S. Presidential debate?


George Bush 1487 votes (19 %)

John Kerry 6217 votes (81 %)



Disclaimer: This is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate.

I know its an internet poll ( but I doubt either party would care enough to flood it)but still . . . thats quite a margin. I suspect its accurate for the following reasons


1. Kerry won the debate. When Bush continued to say "hard work" and failed to acknowledge that changing circumstances can lead to different decisions-- he floundered. then his justification for attacking Iraq . .. . sorry Mr Bush but Iraq never attacked you. kerry deflected and explained well the "inconsistency" that Bush tried to label him with.

2. Canada has felt rather snubbed by the Bush administration. We have been a staunch ally for many years but the Bush years have seen a marked cooling in realtions.

3. Canada has a history of being more cautious and I suspect Kerry's message of greater caution and prudence in military matters resonated. Canadians seem to be great believers in multi-lateralism.



This may signal that Kerry is back in the race. .. . If Homeland Security is Bush's strength . .. ouch. It was no knockout, but it was Kerry on points by a modest but clear margin.

Anyone that can't see that must be either

a) blind or
b) a supporter of Bush's Iraq policy