01-10-2004 21:38									#211
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer dresser drawer? oh, i thought we was talking about the 12 gauge not a little handgun...

I can get my Sig-Sauer P229 on target ten times faster than anyone trying to do the same with a shotgun stored in any resting position.

And given the damage done by a double-tap from a pair of .357Sig hollowpoints, a 12 guage won't make a bit of difference. In fact the second round isn't even necessary.

	01-10-2004 21:40									#212
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Ramo And are you saying that Bush had substance? He repeated the same talking points over and over again.

Bullshit is a substance.

	01-10-2004 21:40									#213
	Tired of ads?

quote: You are right. Bush should not have to defend tactical command decisions.

Same answer from other post

	01-10-2004 21:41									#214
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

They aren't cheap shots at Tommy Franks. Bush was the idiot in charge of pulling troops out of Afganistan to use in Iraq before Tora Bora. Maybe if we hadn't pulled troops out of Afganistan, we'd habve been able to have the manpower to sorround the mountain. Hell, maybe there should have been more troops in Afganistan.

	01-10-2004 21:41									#215
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned Flubber, Cooling of relations? Let's put it bluntly. The Canadian government has openly ridiculed the US president. And, this lack of fundamental diplomacy is the fault of the United States?

so you hold our country responsible for the idiotic comments of an outspoken maverick MP, disavowed by everyone else.

Should we be getting all offended any time some republican senator from Buttlick says something offensive?

	01-10-2004 21:41									#216
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Bullshit is a substance

"That is not how a Commander-in-Cheif moderator acts!"

	01-10-2004 21:42									#217
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Ned Flubber, Cooling of relations? Let's put it bluntly. The Canadian government has openly ridiculed the US president. And, this lack of fundamental diplomacy is the fault of the United States?

Yes. When you poison the well, don't be surprised when the village hates you.

	01-10-2004 21:46									#218
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Yes. When you poison the well, don't be surprised when the village hates you.

	01-10-2004 22:01									#219
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Kerry won, ultimately Bush will win the election because the ability to reason, form an argument, be intelligent, intellectual, informed and dynamic means nothing to a population who wants to keep the death penalty, can't get it up without a gun under their pillow and orders their children to worship the flag every morning in school. People are inevitably attracted to people on their level. And people are stupid.

Ooh, that's offensive.

My rifle is in the garage, and I always have an erection. Even the morning after having my vasectomy.

	01-10-2004 22:10									#220
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Democracy Corps have put out a poll. The internals are very interesting.
http://www.democracycorps.com/repor...ate_Release.pdf

Kerry's cut his deficits on foreign policy by half. He's down by only 8 on the War on Terror and Homeland Security, and down by only 4 on Iraq and having a clear plan (where he cut his deficit by 3/4).

It looks like Kerry is coming very close to eliminating his deficit on foreign policy.

He also secured a decisive lead on independents.

Look for the horse race to catch up appropriately.

	01-10-2004 22:26									#221
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Just heard the first few minutes of O'Reilly's radio show and even he admits that Kerry won this one, although it was certainly not a knock out.

	01-10-2004 22:54									#222
	Remove this text

Kerry looked and sounded like he'd been carved from oak. Bush was pathetic.

Bush'll still win, though.

	01-10-2004 23:06									#223
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Those caveats are kind of important, might have avoided this war. ....... He's right, finish the job at hand, not let a bunch of Afghan warlords go into Tora Bora and capture him for us. Who made that decision? Wasn't someone too concerned with capturing OBL. Any heads roll? Well, just the guy (Shinseki?) who said we'd need many more soldiers to pull this off. His head rolled because his advice was not only unwanted, but it conflicted with Rummy and the boyz... They do add up, Kerry wanted the President to have the authority to go to war as leverage over Saddam but also wanted the President to try and avoid the war by following certain steps first, and it's clear the Bushies were planning to get Iraq within days or weeks after 9/11 so the steps they were planning on didn't include Kerry's ideas. But Kerry is either a fool or using a ploy we see many in Congress use to avoid blame for dumb wars - give the power to declare war to the President. If he does and it blows up in his face, blame the Prez. If he doesn't, blame him for the results of inaction. If he does and wins big, try to get your picture taken with him at the first state of the union address of the second term.

Lets face it Iraq was on the Agenda for the Bush administration from the day he was in office. Remember the "Axis of Evil" speech, that was given BEFORE 9/11 (where was Al-Queda or Afganistan?) The war in Iraq is not an adjuct to the war on terror; the war on terror is an adjuct to the Bush Administrations designs for Iraqi oil.

	01-10-2004 23:09									#224
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

VP DEBATE PWNZ!!!

I hope they give them boxing gloves!!!!

	01-10-2004 23:12									#225
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Dems are really going after him. The front page of CNN.com:

Attachment: cnn.jpg
This has been downloaded 90 time(s).

	01-10-2004 23:19									#226
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

.

Attachment: cnn3.jpg
This has been downloaded 100 time(s).

	02-10-2004 00:09									#227
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

@ Novak the Pathetic for giving Kerry a D

	02-10-2004 00:11									#228
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

http://www.georgewbush.com/debatefacts/debate.aspx

	02-10-2004 00:12									#229
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Dems are really going after him. The front page of CNN.com:

They're using the tried and true Agathon gambit. Claim victory no matter what.

	02-10-2004 00:12									#230
	Increase Your PM Length

What victory ?

Attachment: cnn2.jpg
This has been downloaded 91 time(s).

	02-10-2004 00:15									#231
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Japher, some of what they say is right, but most of it is a cluster**** of half-truths and sophisms.

Politicians lie and distort facts. On what basis can you say that Bush did it less as to be awarded a B?

	02-10-2004 00:18									#232
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ned Kerry's main problem was that Bush did not put a coalition together on the scale of his father's coalition. Kerry has a lot of praise for Bush I. But, even though this criticism is somewhat valid in that Bush might have been able to obtain a larger coalition by caving to French demands, this position is not consistent with the other Kerry position that Iraq was a colossal mistake and a diversion from the real war on terror in Iraq... the wrong war, at the wrong time and in the wrong place. That is pure Deanism and is wholly inconsistent with Kerry's "nuanced" first position on Iraq.

This is actually 100% consistent.

Kerry says Bush promised numerous things would be done about Iraq before going to War:

1. Exhaust all other possibilities

2. Build a large and strong coalition as in the first Iraq War

3. He said he would plan it carefully

He also lied about there being Nuclear Weapons or a Nuclear Program (and it was known well before we went in that this wasn't true).

So, Kerry expects Bush to do all of those things, and Bush doesn't and goes in anyway.

Now we don't have enough troops to go around.

Why? No large and strong Coalition, and no careful planning on how to handle the aftermath. If we had both of those, we easily could have done Afghanistan AND Iraq. We didn't and so we can't. A new president is the only chance we have of changing the level of foreign help in Iraq now.

This doesn't mean cow-towing to foreign wants, but it means being aware of their desires and interests and working with them. The World is a community, and like a community you have to work together on big projects so that you can get them done right.

So, in short, Kerry was consistent (as he has been consistent, even though he doesn't always state his positions well). We could have done both quite well, but Bush didn't follow his plan; we needed a real coalition.

-Drachasor

	02-10-2004 00:20									#233
	Tired of ads?

quote: On what basis can you say that Bush did it less as to be awarded a B?

I'm not, just saying that Kerry didn't deserve an A or maybe even a B. The D is low, but not by much IMO.

	02-10-2004 00:21									#234
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Drachasor This is actually 100% consistent. Kerry says Bush promised numerous things would be done about Iraq before going to War: 1. Exhaust all other possibilities 2. Build a large and strong coalition as in the first Iraq War 3. He said he would plan it carefully He also lied about there being Nuclear Weapons or a Nuclear Program (and it was known well before we went in that this wasn't true). So, Kerry expects Bush to do all of those things, and Bush doesn't and goes in anyway. Now we don't have enough troops to go around. Why? No large and strong Coalition, and no careful planning on how to handle the aftermath. If we had both of those, we easily could have done Afghanistan AND Iraq. We didn't and so we can't. A new president is the only chance we have of changing the level of foreign help in Iraq now. This doesn't mean cow-towing to foreign wants, but it means being aware of their desires and interests and working with them. The World is a community, and like a community you have to work together on big projects so that you can get them done right. So, in short, Kerry was consistent (as he has been consistent, even though he doesn't always state his positions well). We could have done both quite well, but Bush didn't follow his plan; we needed a real coalition. -Drachasor

	02-10-2004 00:23									#235
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If CNN's user polls are worth anything as an indicator of public perception, the public thinks that Kerry did better than the pundits think, and that Bush did worse than the pundits think.

Oh, and Novak is a douchebag

	02-10-2004 00:25									#236
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker What victory ?

In reality I gave Bush something like a a D+ and Kerry a B.

Regardless most of the talking heads refer to it as a draw to marginal victory for Kerry, not something to trumpet as a foregone conclusion. That is confirmed one way or the other in a few days upon repolling.

By the by, Paul Begala A+ on content, . Obviously Kerry's new love interest.

	02-10-2004 00:47									#237
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Kerry gets a 9/10. Bush get's, as usual, a 9/11.

But seriously, I give Kerry a B- on substance and a B+ on style. Bush gets a B- on substance and a D+ on style.

Jim Lehrer gets a D as moderator.

	02-10-2004 00:52									#238
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The President surprised me when he did'nt just run off the stage. I think he was very happy that he was still standing when it was over.
Kerry did very well to point out the failings of the President. I feel more secure in my vote that Kerry believes that the reasons presented to him for going to war in Iraq were false. Unlike most dem politicians who are afraid to say that.
The fear I have is that after all the facts come out, people will still vote on the basis of likability vs intelligence. The President even pointed out that Kerry went to Yale. I'm sure that that earned him votes with people who do not know that the President went there also.

	02-10-2004 00:57									#239
	Got spare money?

So I end up missing two and a half more pages of posts after having been "gone" for less than a day.

	02-10-2004 00:57									#240
	Support Apolyton

quote: Kerry did very well to point out the failings of the President. I feel more secure in my vote that Kerry believes that the reasons presented to him for going to war in Iraq were false. Unlike most dem politicians who are afraid to say that.

I agree, and I agree with what Kerry says on the matter. However, I think Kerry should condone not condem Bush for his actions, this would really help him. Most ppl like me see Dems as do nothings; Clinton ignoring Saddam for 8 years, we blame them for the rift we caused in the ME, they stimmy budget and health care reform all the time by shooting down plans but not proposing any with any resemblence of a compromise... I would rather have some act after analyzing all the facts, than some one who will sit on their hands, even after being given the power to go to war. We see Kerry as a coward, despite his Vietnam service.

quote: The fear I have is that after all the facts come out, people will still vote on the basis of likability vs intelligence.

quote: The President even pointed out that Kerry went to Yale. I'm sure that that earned him votes with people who do not know that the President went there also.

If ppl don't know Bush went to Yale then how the hell would they be able to vote Intelligence over Likeability?:P