24-10-2004 08:23									#391
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Curiously, I don't even remember that; albeit it sounds like a possible and good solution - the other faction referred to in it is presumably the Angels?

Last edited by Kassiopeia on 24-10-2004 at 08:35

	25-10-2004 00:27									#392
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Yes- the other faction would have been the Angels

LOL, I can't even find the thread now where I pulled that already-quoted stuff from (it sounds like Maniac talking) let alone find the original thread where it was posted.

(We just have too many threads covering too many topics in each, with lots of overlap. It needs Skanky to spend a couple of hours moving stuff into appropriate locations.

Or add me to the Sparta Mods - after all, I did it last game - and what else does a museum curator do anyway but dust and polish and move exhibits around)

	26-10-2004 08:08									#393
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quote: Posted by Illuminatus in the Embassy We would like to know what technologies are of interest to Spartans. In return, we can offer a same list of technologies of our interest to Spartan Federation. Perhaps even full exchange of technology lists may occur soon after that.

My current view is that we're only interested in Doc Loyalty and Intellectual Integrity until after we've built the MCC and the CDF (we want to keep our research costs as low as possible, so that entails no useless techs right now)

What's the Junta's position on this?

	26-10-2004 10:26									#394
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Sounds like a plan to me. Or do we want Social Psych from someone?

	26-10-2004 11:56									#395
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I gave the to your suggestion (in the Morgan thread) of an Angels swap of Soc Psych for Gene Splicing (you prolly need to tell them that to us, although appearing imbalanced in their favour, it's a case of getting something now rather than nothing later)

With the Gaians, I'd be inclined to say that as we've found an alternate source for HEC, now we're only interested in Doc Loyalty and Int Int at the present time (they know that we are wanting the CDF, as we made their not building it a condition of getting Ethical Calculus - and we don't need to tell them that our 'source" is probing it from Lal)

	28-10-2004 21:30									#396
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Illuminatus PMed he to find out if we've noticed their proposals, I posted the "you and the Angels, sitting in a tree, KIS-SING" rhetoric in the forum.

	04-11-2004 01:45									#397
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We believe that this is the first sighting of the Gaian homeland:

Attachment: 2145 invincible.jpg
This has been downloaded 13 time(s).

	04-11-2004 18:44									#398
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They haven't even entirely pod-popped their homelands.

	04-11-2004 21:48									#399
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As the Gaians currently have the turn, shouldn't Kassiopeia be more active in dialogue with them?

e.g.:

We believe (from your earlier offer to trade to us Social Psych and Doctrine Flexibility before decade's end - and your subsequent denial that you are researching Doc Flex) that you are currently researching Social Psych.

We have just obtained this tech and are wondering if you would be interested in a trade sequence that would significanly enhance the technological status of both our factions (we also have 2 of the 3 techs that Social Psych leads to - Secrets and Ethical Calculus - and if the Gaians are willing to engage in some "tech leapfrogging" we would be willing to package these for "yet-to-be-researched" techs and future considerations

	04-11-2004 22:54									#400
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I've been busy lately. I haven't checked the diplo forums per se, I've assumed (perhaps erroneously) that if there's a trade that needs my attention, someone'll mention it here.

	04-11-2004 23:03									#401
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Okay, I made a new thread with the proposal, but I tried to tie it in with our cold shoulder speech earlier to make it look more cohesive with our earlier stance.

In case you're wondering, I'm taking part in NaNoWriMo, National Novel Writing Month, which is why my presence here will be a tad more sporadic than before - fortunately I'm currently on schedule, having written 5600 words in three days.

	05-11-2004 07:37									#402
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I'm taking part in a National Novel Writing Month ....................... having written 5600 words in three days.

oooh - neat. What's your story subject? (In english? - and if so, will you be putting it in our fiction section eventually - or does copyright belong to the sponsoring organization?)

	05-11-2004 11:20									#403
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It's in Finnish, but I hope to be able to translate the best parts (the whole novel even) into English sooner or later. The copyright will be entirely mine, I only need to submit to the organisers for word count verification (the only goal is to get 50k words done in thirty days. You can cheat, but there's really no point in it.) Putting it in Stories/Fiction as I translate might be an interesting project.

I'm writing a scifi piece, it takes place in a world where a growth called Legion has destroyed human civilization on the western and southern hemispheres, leaving Europe and Asia to fend for themselves. After fending for themselves for 20 years, the scientists battling the scourge are starting to develop a countermeasure, but for that, they need people who have a very unique genetical mutation.

This is where the protagonist kicks in - a very, very ordinary guy with a very, very extraordinary dna. It's going to go on from there to be a treatise on human psychology, moral issues and the nature of human relationships, with enough suspense and romance thrown in to not bore the reader - I fear I'm trying to get too much done in it, but I have to try.

The main thing is that I'm actually writing this thing out, it's been sitting in my head for two years. The community is nice too, I've shacked up with some fellow Finns on IRC where we share ideas and feelings.

A few lines which I've had to translate for various reasons already:

Mikael was hit for the first time by a sporestorm on a warm November afternoon.

And:

The operation was going perfectly, but Dr. Mallory had never learnt to like the smell of burning human flesh.

	05-11-2004 18:38									#404
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WOW - great "teaser" lines

I'm looking froward to it's appearing in serialized form in the fiction forum!!

	06-11-2004 02:34									#405
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Chaos Lemma:

Let it be known that despite our position on the free flow of information, if we willingly agree to some restriction on information flow, we will abide by it. Our position does not lead us to lie to our trade partners. The embargo with the Angels regarding Doc: Mobility is still in effect.

Illuminatus:

One note: we should maintain speedy negotiations since we will get Social Psych soon, so we expect details soon. We are willing to accept restrictions on free flow of informations if the price is acceptable.

Illuminatus:

The turnplaying process has started. Since we got no details from you, I am afraid you will have to preaccept Social Psych in your turn in whatever agreement we may achieve, since I doubt we can achieve agreement within next several hours.

Maniac:

I'm not so involved in diplomacy, so I'm not sure the Junta would agree with the exact proposals I make here, but since you asked for a speedy reply, I'll give you some overview of - as far as I know - the lines we were thinking along:

Unless you have besides Biogenetics other techs we don't possess, there is unfortunately no way for us to engage in a straight tech-for-tech trade. This leaves as far as I can tell two options open for us to trade:

a) We give you SocPsych. You give us a sum of credits in return.

b) We give you SocPsych. As a consequence you'll be able to switch research to something else. You then change to researching a tech we do not have yet and which we agree upon to switch to, and then you give it to us after researching. Leapfrogging in other words. An example of a tech we would be interested in would be Doctrine: Loyalty.

I'm not aware what's the Junta's position on trading embargo's or possible SP-restriction clausules for this particular trade.

	06-11-2004 03:16									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Note to file The Gaians obtained the technologies Doctrine Mobility and Gene Splicing upon opening their 2142 turn and accepting their profferred trade to us Both techs are embargoed for 3rd party trading for five years, so the earliest the Gaians could onward-trade either would be the 2148 year

They've just opened the 2146 year, and as 2147 is still within the 5-year embargo period, they are still 2 away from being able to offer either to the Angels

(It might be prudent for Maniac to point this out to the Gaians, so that there are no misunderstandings)

	06-11-2004 03:39									#407
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And there's a lesson there for us somewhere.

We got beaten down by the Gaians as to the length of the embargo - to 5 years.

Then we got 2 turns delay in getting the Angels commlink thanks to the Gaians' internal "rule" about not mixing tech trades with commlinks (but really so that they could sell ours to the Angels in the same year they sold the Angels to us)

Then the Angels apepared deaf. Little contact, little interest, except their rant about "free flow of information"

I'd try to find out:

Have the Gaians any obligation to trade Social Psych to the Angels once they get it? (If not, then good. If yes, then what additional considerations might they be willing to give us in order to persuade us to give them Soc Psych without restrictions - perhaps agreeing not to build the CDF? - or perhaps agreeing to a 5 year extension on trading Doc Mobility to the Angels, to give us more time to reap a return on our investment)

Would the G's be willing, if we send them Soc Psych, to change immediately to Doc Loyalty and send that to us in 2147 (assuming that's when they get Soc Psych)

If we do nothing, then the Gaians will get Soc Psych as a self-researched tech in 2147, and presumably the Angels shortly thereafter, so unless we get a tech from either the Gaians or the Angels in return for sending Soc Psych, the net return will be that we lose part of our current tech superiority (of course, gifting the tech allowing the Gaians to change - and getting, say, Doc Loyalty next year also means that the Gaians (and presumably the Angels) also get Doc Loyalty next year, so that objection is somewhat spurious.)

So, IMO, we either make the best of a bad situation - and get Doc Loyalty in 2147, - prolly without any restrictions on their trading Soc Psych to the Angels (but like wise we can trade Doc Loyalty to Zal, Lal and Morgan) - or we say "A Plague on both your houses" and withdraw into isolationism and beef up our probe and transport production

If they are willing to do the Doc Loyalty exchange, I'd go for it (and how difficult will it be for them to decide that's a good thing? - they ether get Soc Psych and Doc Loyalty by 2147, or Soc Psych alone - only dimwits would choose the latter)

If they're not willing to dance with us on that one, I'd say "OK - the Junta regards this as a hostile act, so expect relations between our factions to become somewhat frosty"

	06-11-2004 20:42									#408
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Sounds good to me!

So what exactly will we offer the Gaians?
SocPsych for DocLoy, but what else?

Will we suggest a trade embargo for a number of years: they can't trade SocPsych for a while, and we can't trade DocLoy for a while? Or shall we suggest mutual ownership? That is, we each own 50% of both SocPsych & DocLoy, meaning decision whether or not to sell it must be made together, and profit must be shared.

And what about the Command Nexus? Should we try to construct that even before possibly building the Maritime Control Center? Should we offer the Gaians something in order to give us free room to build it?

Better make an offer quickly before we run out of time!

	07-11-2004 19:07									#409
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Turn is currently with Morgan, so we'll have it soon

We want to be able to sell/trade Doc Loyalty to Zak, Lal and Morgan, the Gaians will want to sell/trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to the Angels

That seems a pretty fair swap to me.

But I still think (as with Ethical Calculus, that the G's - and in turn the A's, must agree not to build the CDF (whether we ourselves actually go about building it is moot, it's the principle that I think is important. )

If they research Soc Psych, Eth Calc and Doc Loyalty on their own, then get Int Int, of course they are totally free to build the CDF. If, however, they get to Int Int with a leg (or two) up from us, then it's prohibited to them (The "leg-up" that they give us, by providing Doc Loyalty, is, co course, valuable in and of itself, but not to the same extent. We might, for example, forswear building certain SP's that might be considered "Gaian-type" SP's such as the Xenodome and the Pholus Mutagen)

And Yang is 10 turns away from building the Command Nexus - we have time to steal it from under their noses if we want to delay our getting the MCC and CDF (But the gaians might try for the CN, so do we need to get a prohibiton on their - or the Angels - building that too? I say "Yes"

Thus I'd see the trade as:

• We'll put Soc Psych, pre-accepted, on the table in 2146.
  
• Gaians open 2147 and accept it, change to Doc Loyalty, and send it to us pre-accepted.
  
• The Gaians undertake not to build the Command Nexus nor the Citizens Defense Force
  
• In consideration of which, Sparta undertakes not to build the Xenoempathy Dome nor the Pholus Mutagen
  
• The Gaians are free to trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to whomsoever they wish, but with the same prohibition on the recipient building the CN or the CDF (only wrt Doc Loyalty)
  
• We are free to trade Doc Loyalty to whomsoever we wish

	07-11-2004 19:47									#410
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quote: * We'll put Soc Psych, pre-accepted, on the table in 2146. * Gaians open 2147 and accept it, change to Doc Loyalty, and send it to us pre-accepted. * The Gaians undertake not to build the Command Nexus nor the Citizens Defense Force * In consideration of which, Sparta undertakes not to build the Xenoempathy Dome nor the Pholus Mutagen * The Gaians are free to trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to whomsoever they wish, but with the same prohibition on the recipient building the CN or the CDF (only wrt Doc Loyalty) * We are free to trade Doc Loyalty to whomsoever we wish

How much of this can I let the participants know? Are there details of this that I must not reveal to the other factions? Has any steps of these (mainly #1) already parts of agreements we've made with the Gaians and Angels, or is this entire set of events stuff that has not been agreed to happen yet?

I do like the idea, it'll tie everybody's hands down a bit and will secure us the SPs we really want

	07-11-2004 19:59									#411
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It's all new (although Maniac has, in the Embassy, suggested that a Soc Psych for Doc Loyalty trade - with possible SP embargoes - might be in the works. (I believe he's asked for confirmation from them that they'll be able to switch to Doc layalty upon getting Soc Psych next turn.

So I'd give the Gaians the whole package (with the revenue sharing added)

quote: Originally posted by Googlie We'll put Soc Psych, pre-accepted, on the table in 2146. Gaians open 2147 and accept it, change to Doc Loyalty, and send it to us pre-accepted. The Gaians undertake not to build the Command Nexus nor the Citizens Defense Force In consideration of which, Sparta undertakes not to build the Xenoempathy Dome nor the Pholus Mutagen The Gaians are free to trade Social Psych and Doc Loyalty to whomsoever they wish, but with the same prohibition on the recipient building the CN or the CDF (only wrt Doc Loyalty) We are free to trade Doc Loyalty to whomsoever we wish Both techs will be treated as "common Property" so that any income - or additional techs - derived from their trading to 3rd parties will be shared equally between the Gaian Federation and the Spartan Federation (thus, if the G's make, say, 25 ec's from selling both Soc Psych and Doc Loyalty to the Angels, and we make, say, 25 each from Morgan, Zak and Lal, there'd be 125 ec's in the pool, with each entitled to 1/2 - so Sparta would sent to the Gaians 13 ec's (rounded) as their share. Any techs received in trade of either of those techs would be equally shared as well)

How much of this we expose to the Angels, though, I'm not sure. I'm expecting that they'll send Biogenetics, pre-accepted, to us, so that when I click "accept" they'll get Gene Splicing and we'll have Biogenetics. That might be enough for this turn, as if we go on a serious 3-way leapfrog towards Fusion or D:AP, it'll need quite some co-ordination among our 3 factions

(And in order to get Maniac's question answered, he might need to give someone on the Gaians side a primer on how the tech projector works - Darsnan, maybe, as he seems to be quite technically inclined)

	07-11-2004 21:26									#412
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Illuminatus:

quote: Since Spartan Federation has shown that it is easily willing to change terms of agreed trades, and has decided to increase prices for us, I do not think that simply giving you level 2 technology for level 1 will be acceptable. Surely you can increase your offer? And we will be able to provide you with Doctrine: Loyalty next year, if this is what you wanted to know.

I feel a sudden temptation to start bombarding their road network.

Shall we point out that if do not trade them, they only get SocPsych, a level one tech. And that therefore this trade should be considered an arrangement where we both get DocLoy, and not a SocPsych<->DocLoy trade?

	07-11-2004 22:09									#413
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Exactly

Almost tempting to let them stew in their own juice

But I guess Kassi logged out earlier today before he read my reply to his post above.

Why don't I just copy it to the Embassy, in his absence? (It's almost a perfect reply to Illuminatus' post there - perhaps expanded by a preamble "This is much more than simply a Soc Psych for Doc Loyalty deal")

Or Maniac, since you've posted already, prior to Illum's response, maybe you could post the full deal proposal, with the suggested preamble?

Last edited by Googlie on 07-11-2004 at 22:15

	07-11-2004 23:22									#414
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I need to leave to Ghent soon. Could you please post it?

	07-11-2004 23:31									#415
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I can do it!

	07-11-2004 23:41									#416
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I also posted a stern rebuttal to Illuminatus' whingeing about us changing accepted agreements in that other thread.

	07-11-2004 23:45									#417
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Illuminatus doesn't seem to be going with it.

Do we push? Should we throw in stipulations that we won't build "Gaian" SPs?

	08-11-2004 02:28									#418
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Why not send the big one (with the bullets - 7 or so posts above) It's a more liberal offer on our part and has a connotation of wanting to partner with them

(btw - I responded in the other Embassy thread re: the 5 or 6 years' embargo)

quote: Posted by Googlei in the Embassy My Dear Lord Illuminatus: Permit me, if I may, enter this discussion. In 2141 the Gaians placed Industrial Base and Industrial Automation in the diplomatic tray, with a "negotiating" status. We reciprocated that same year with our technologies, under "accepted" status. The Gaians received these technologies upon opening the turn at the beginning of year 2142, and we received your technologies at the end of 2142, (we are last in turn order, and the year changes when we send the turn to the Gaians) Five years must elapse before the technology is free of any embargo. Therefore the years 2143, 2144, 2145, 2146 and 2147 must end before the embargo expires. Thus 2148 is the earliest that the Gaians can onward trade the technology. (of course, within our interpertation you would be within your rights to offer the technology in 2147 for ratification and acceptance by a third party in 2148, but not if offered in 2147 on a pre-accepted basis) To argue otherwise is to introduce the element of Turn Order into any deals that have a term (as there are five other factions whose turns are played between the Gaians receiving a benefit and the Spartans receiving a commensurate benefit) But we are pleased that you have seen fit, while disagreeing, to accept our interpretation in this instance.

Don't know if that will mollify them a little or not

	08-11-2004 03:06									#419
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Heh, I'm in Gent here, testing out my brand new laptop, and sneakily using some wireless network which happens to be somewhere around here.

Should we throw in the following argument in the discussion?
If we don't build the Command Nexus soon, the Hive will. Which means the Gaians will be forced to fights masses of Hive units, two morale levels stronger than they would normally be. And as stupid as the AI may be in combat, when you have to fight a constant stream of impact units when you have at most laser units, it'll be difficult indeed.

	08-11-2004 04:11									#420
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Of course the Gaians could build the CN if they get Soc Psych from us and switch to Doc Loyalty (might even have it built that same turn, before we even see the tech)

That is, assuming the "we" in your post referred to us, Sparta, and not to us, a human-controlled faction