17-10-2004 05:10									#331
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They want to give us Doc: Flex? I bet he'll feel silly after he realises what he just told us. The Gaian pressuring attempts feel pretty silly too, is that the best they can do, was my first thought.

I'll start drafting replies within the hour.

	17-10-2004 05:12									#332
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(That means you can decide what we'll say, in the meantime)

	17-10-2004 06:03									#333
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LL

	17-10-2004 06:10									#334
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As an aside, eventually the Angels, gaians and Morgan will meet the Uni and PK's (or maybe buy the commlinks from Yang)

We need to make sure that we trade everything we get back to the AI so that there is nothing that the other teams can give in exchange. ('cos to buy from the AI, they're now asking in the 225 ec's range, and it'll go up as the game progresses, but the AI will still trade so long as it sees a fair exchange)

All this in the context of .... the others might be able to get Ethical Calculus from Zak or Lal

And as another aside ...... I wonder where the Gaians think we are on the map. We must have surprised them when we appeared beside their mindworm in Yang's territory

	17-10-2004 06:26									#335
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(Note that this post is repeated, for convenience, several posts below)


How about :

The Junta has been considering your request to have us trade to you the technology of Ethical Calculus.

We do realize its importance to the Gaian Union (with its concomitant benefits - the building of Childrens' Creches and changing to a Democratic social engineering choice, which together with running a Planned economy greatly facilitates population growth - especially now that you have the Gene Splicing technology)

For us, too, Ethical Calculus is a key technology, but for different reasons.

If we do decide to make it available to the Gaian Union, it would only be on the following terms, which are not negotiable:

• There would be a trade embargo to third parties for a period of fifteen (15) years
  
• The Gaian Union would undertake not to build the Citizens' Defense Force Special Project upon researching or acquiring Intellectual Integrity
  
• The Gaian Union will pay an annual "technology licence fee" to the Spartan Federation of 20 ec's for 10 years. (At any time the balance of the 200 ec's price can be paid as a lump sum)

Last edited by Googlie on 17-10-2004 at 08:19

	17-10-2004 06:39									#336
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we mustn't hike the price up too much. What's more valuable than any amount of credits, right now, is to have them locked in a no-embargo no-CDF position. So maybe 20 credits a turn?

	17-10-2004 06:42									#337
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I'd go along with that (now edited) - and 180 ec's is what it takes to upgrade our 3 rovers to unarmored Impact rovers

We'd better wait until more of the Junta have considered it, though.

maybe a terse "The Junta is considering your request" kind of message right now (more diplomatically than that, though)

And maybe also saying "while we acknowledge that your trading of Industrial Automation to us was indeed helpful, we submit that Gene Splicing, in return, is of not insignificant value to you"

	17-10-2004 06:50									#338
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I guess the gaians didn't "double deal" with the Angels re our commlink

It's been 6 hours or so since the Angels' turn was downloaded, and no-one has contacted us

EDIT: wrong!! see here

Last edited by Googlie on 17-10-2004 at 18:01

	17-10-2004 06:54									#339
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quote: The Junta has convened and is deliberating the matter at hand, and your proposal - due to circumstances beyond our control, we need some extra time to achieve a quorum. Fortunately, as you yourself put it, there is no urgency involved. I would like to take this opportunity to note, though, that I am sure anyone would be happy to trade without any reluctance Industrial Automation for Gene Splicing, which as a technology is key to any factional long-term strategy. The Junta naturally has a long enough memory to recall such a transaction - you will find the memory of the Junta to be very long.

I'm thinking about the last sentence here. I like the tone - a sort of Godfather-like "do not even consider anything shady". I don't think it comes out as too aggressive, either? Perhaps chance "you will" to "you might", as a sort of gesture of "we haven't lost all hope with you".

	17-10-2004 06:56									#340
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Maybe go even further with this initial reply along the lines of:

If I interpret correctly your Voice of the Planet Special Issue #1: The Others the Gaian Union possesses the technology Progenitor Psych

If this is indeed the case, we would be interested in acquiring it from you

	17-10-2004 07:00									#341
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LOL - crossposted

But I like your version (and the "might" as well, but perhaps ending with a "very long indeed ", which further strengthens it.

Then add the line on Prog Psych, to show that we are indeed open for business (maybe we give flex for Prog and social psych?)

	17-10-2004 07:07									#342
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Added Prog Psych line, and the "might" and the "indeed", and sent it off.

	17-10-2004 08:20									#343
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Just repeating this suggestion (so that the Junta members won't have to go back twenty posts to find it - I've edited it anyway, pointing to here)

Suggestion for Kassiopiea to send to the Gaians:

The Junta has been considering your request to have us trade to you the technology of Ethical Calculus.

We do realize its importance to the Gaian Union (with its concomitant benefits - the building of Childrens' Creches and changing to a Democratic social engineering choice, which together with running a Planned economy greatly facilitates population growth - especially now that you have the Gene Splicing technology)

For us, too, Ethical Calculus is a key technology, but for different reasons.

If we do decide to make it available to the Gaian Union, it would only be on the following terms, which are not negotiable:

• There would be a trade embargo to third parties for a period of fifteen (15) years
  
• The Gaian Union would undertake not to build the Citizens' Defense Force Special Project upon researching or acquiring Intellectual Integrity
  
• The Gaian Union will pay an annual "technology licence fee" to the Spartan Federation of 20 ec's for 10 years. (At any time the balance of the 200 ec's price can be paid as a lump sum)

	17-10-2004 18:11									#344
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quote: Extracted from the Embassy files - posted by Illuminatus You have been honest with us, so you deserve an answer

I feel so ashamed ( )

True, we have not lied (our words were chosen very carefully) and we cannot control what inferences may be drawn from our "truths", so I guess we have been "honest"

GGLIE

	17-10-2004 18:41									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie If I interpret correctly your Voice of the Planet Special Issue #1: The Others the Gaian Union possesses the technology Progenitor Psych If this is indeed the case, we would be interested in acquiring it from you

What's the purpose of acquiring Progenitor Psych now? Would you prefer to research Adaptive Economics immediately after EcoEng? If not, would acquiring this tech before we really need it not just increase our tech costs?

quote: Then add the line on Prog Psych, to show that we are indeed open for business (maybe we give flex for Prog and social psych?)

What value do you attach to SocPsych?
(IIRC Zakharov has Social Psych, so we could steal it from him with a probe team if we wanted. Assuming a 2c->1min exchange rate, and assuming a 50% capture rate for the 30-min probe team (thus 50% chance of "losing 60c"), I'd consider SocialPsych to have a value of not much more than 30 credits for us.)


I'm beginning to wonder. When we first contemplated invading Zakharov, the major reason I was in favour was because we could gain lots and lots of techs by doing so. But now IIRC the only techs Zak has that we don't have are Biogenetics, Social Psych and the tech they're researching now. So our probe teams which I assume would accompany our invasion forces have increasingly less to do, and UoP invasion becoming less lucrative.

	17-10-2004 19:03									#346
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Well, the thought (on my part) behind acquiring those lowly techs in trades before stealing from Zak was to increase the chances of stealing something worthwhile

Right now, if we techstole, we'd prolly walk away from Zak with Soc Psych or Biogen, then it'll be five or six turns before we get probes bcak to his coast (and prolly need to go to a different base, too, to avoid his "enhanced security locks" at the first base we steal from.

So I'm in favor of infiltrating first, to see what he's got and what he's researching, then striking with the second probe (even if the trannie - or the probe on land - sits idle for a turn) witha targeted tech in mind (ie having cheaply gotten the level-1 techs for peanust from our trading partners)

I'd also be in favor, while we assemble the invasion force, of trading techs to Zak, so that he can be getting higher up the tech tree for our next probe mission to lift from him

(And elsewhere I've suggested a means of getting Ecol Eng for free before the decade's end)

Of course all these comments re tech trades and tech steals are but proposals at this stage thrown out for the Junta to discuss and toss out as approptiate

Last edited by Googlie on 17-10-2004 at 19:19

	17-10-2004 19:42									#347
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quote: Posted in the Embassy by Illuminatus You have been honest with us, so you deserve an answer. Mindwom was ferried by GDN Dauntless to that region, where it was to continue west following fungal pathways, while Dauntless is recalled to ferry other units.

Shall I, in turn, be honest and say that R-112 was dimensionally rifted there?

Or let them ponder how we are so close to Yang (as they think we don't yet have flex)?

(And the "Dauntless" must be a 2-movement Unity Foil transport)

	17-10-2004 23:15									#348
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Yeah, I would say go ahead and tell them it was dimensionally rifted. They still won't know where it was rifted from.

Edit: Well, on second thought, if they have suspicion that we are right next door, they might we more willing to trade on favorable terms.

Last edited by Zeiter on 17-10-2004 at 23:21

	17-10-2004 23:19									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'd also be in favor, while we assemble the invasion force, of trading techs to Zak, so that he can be getting higher up the tech tree for our next probe mission to lift from him

I know, I know: a sudden change of heart a few turns before we could start war with Zak, but since these last two years we've already obtained most techs we wanted from him, I'm beginning to wonder: if we'd already have to gift techs to Zak in order to be able to steal some useful techs a few turns later, I'm starting to wonder if it wouldn't be more lucrative if we just stayed in peace with Zakharov after all, and simply traded for techs with him the usual way.
Does Zakharov still want a pact with us? If so, then we could possibly even stay pacted with Zak for a great part of the game, and turn our army and probes on Yang instead. Who knows Zak would even be willing to give his good pactmates some techs for free.

Just tell me if I'm talking nonsense. It's just something I started pondering about.

	17-10-2004 23:33									#350
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I do believe that Zak was even willing to pact with us against Yang last time we talked, was he not? And also, don't we have a large outstanding loan with Yang? It might be better to go to war with Yang instead of Zak so that we don't have to pay all of that back. Plus, it'll gain the favor of the Gaians.

Right now, Yang's probably researching almost as well as Zak. We'll find out exactly what's going on with Zak once we infiltrate him, but if he only has several techs to offer, then maybe it wouldn't be worth it to invade him.

However, if we decide not to invade Zak, we won't acquire those juicy industrial centers that I've been salivating over. It may not be a big loss, though. We need infiltration to find out.

	17-10-2004 23:40									#351
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And to continue with that line of thinking - a pact with Zak might also lead to a pact with Lal (his master).

And does anyone know if the following might hold true:

We could then churn out probeteams to staff both pactmates bases (they're unlikely to do so to any great degree) thus closing off the stealtech possibilites for the other 3 human teams (who'd have to attack our probes to get access, thus alerting us and giving us the opportunity to say "hands off our pactmates"

But every time we call Zak he wants us to join him in a Vendetta against Yang - which is prolly not a bad thing anyway, as we don't want to give the Gaians unfettered run of the Jungle. We could use our overland strength to move down thru the Fungal Pass, staging from Minas Tirith (and if we could reach it, that's a great chokepoint just 1 tile SW of Great Collective)

	17-10-2004 23:47									#352
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If we are thinking of invading Yang, we better do it quickly, before he gets plasma defenders. (And he's also close to getting the ECM ability too.)

A pact with Zak and Lal would be awesome!

	17-10-2004 23:59									#353
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His next tech that he researches will be Superconductor (for the gatling guns). You rarely see yang with Impact weapons - he usually by passes them.

Dunno whether he'll go for plasma armor or pulse-3 armor (prolly the former as it's an original smac faction) Were I playing the Hive with Sparta as a neighbour I'd go 3-pulse for the +25% defense against rover-chassis vehicles

	19-10-2004 02:51									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I was tempted to say in the embassy ... ......... move east to the Hive coast and be picked up by one of our Cruiser Transports .......... ...

Hmmm...
I seem to recall having a problem doing this in the past (?).
Can you "transport" units other than your own? I don't think so. Not even those of a pactmate.
Someone correct me here, should you know otherwise.

	19-10-2004 03:00									#355
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Yeah, I would say go ahead and tell them it was dimensionally rifted. They still won't know where it was rifted from. Edit: Well, on second thought, if they have suspicion that we are right next door, they might we more willing to trade on favorable terms.

No! Don't tell them. Please...

I have never told anyone in MP games when I've dimensionally rifted. Not even to this day. It will add a certain aura of awe to the others regarding how mobile and potentially threatening the Spartan Federation can be.

	19-10-2004 03:04									#356
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie And does anyone know if the following might hold true: We could then churn out probeteams to staff both pactmates bases (they're unlikely to do so to any great degree) thus closing off the stealtech possibilites for the other 3 human teams (who'd have to attack our probes to get access, thus alerting us and giving us the opportunity to say "hands off our pactmates"

Hmmm...

Lemme think. That rings a bell from somewhere...

Expect an edit to this post as soon as my intution has "clicked".

	19-10-2004 03:58									#357
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Hmmm... I seem to recall having a problem doing this in the past (?). Can you "transport" units other than your own? I don't think so. Not even those of a pactmate. Someone correct me here, should you know otherwise.

(It was our own R-112 I was referring to [to be picked upo by our "cruiser transport"], not the Gaian mindworm)

And, no, I don't think we can board even a pactmate's vessel (but I will scenario test it - put a pactmate's unit in a port city with the "load ship" command and then sail the pactmate's ship out and see if the unit went with it - stay tuned .......... )

	19-10-2004 05:14									#358
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I guess the Embassy forums (all 3 of them) are dead 'cos the other teams, just like ours, can't make up their (our) minds what to trade to whom for what

GGLIE

	20-10-2004 02:19									#359
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Well...

Go have a look at what Illuminatus has to say (!).

Looks like it's time to lose these guys - unless we start to push them and see how much they'll take (if you understand the expression).

	20-10-2004 02:38									#360
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If it were up to me...

I would e-mail Illuminatus, and say something like:

---------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Man,

I'm so and so from the Spartan faction in ACDG - III.

[ ... You can put some kind of nice introduction in this space, exchange pleasentries, and what not ... ]

I'm contacting you cause I see it is necessarry to understand a thing or two - before some mechanisms are put into motion.

Now down to business...

Okay, what's the story?
Are you role-playing?
Is this what your faction members have told you to say?
Is this what the Angels have pushed you to say?
Is it a combination of all of these?

If you, or your council want to push us away, then just say so. We'll gladly deal with the rest of the field. But giving us such an answer will only anger the Junta. Thus you'll be left out of the loop when it comes to multi-factional interactions.

This is of course, maybe the way you want things. We've (not just the council, but also I have) been informed that you (or your council) is just buying time so that you can iron things out with your alliance pals (?).

We have contact with every faction that survived Planetfall. As well as the splinter groups from two of these (don't bother asking, I can't believe this myself). So unless your trying to add to the intrigue (gossip) network - it's for you time to come clean.

Please respond in due haste.

Sincere Regards,
Your Signature


P.S. You can publish this letter and all subsequent, of our communications in your private forums. I'm doing this, just to speed things up, as time is of the essence. I. myself will not do so for now, untill I've heard back from you. Perhaps, you were in a hurry when you posted in the embassy, and did not choose your words as carefully as you normally would have.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's rough (cause I'm typing fast again, hoping this comes up before one of you posts - laugh!), but it would certainly shake some information loose from what's happening inside the council.

Edit: added the P.S. above.

Edit. Added more to the P.S. and corrected repition, and some spelling.

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 20-10-2004 at 03:16