20-10-2004 02:42									#361
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Eh, so should we sell them EthCalc or not? I have not gotten a clear picture of what we think about this. Should we try to rip some credits off of them?

Krysia: Hmm, that is an interesting idea... I would have someone like Snoddasmannen PM it, but with perhaps with a slightly hostile tone. And sign it Major Snoddasmannen or the like - maybe even go as far as to add "Ambassador to the Morganites". Perhaps try to portray shift in the Junta power balance or the like. (Just for RP purposes)

	20-10-2004 02:45									#362
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Oh darn...

Somebody posted after all (laugh!).

I was editing while you were doing so.

	20-10-2004 03:05									#363
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Kassiopeia:

I think it would diminish the intended effect if it were PM'd, instead of e-mailed. We want to really find out (and quickly) if the Gaians are stalling, or whatever.

And, Snoddasmannen, is surely regarded as perhaps, a loose artillery piece in our camp, by the Gaians (No offense intended Snoddasmannen ). I think it would be better if somebody with more authority would do so. It would also demonstrate a more genuine attempt of us trying to get something going, from their perspective.

I also (now) feel that demonstrating rifts within the Junta is not a good idea. Showing that we act together; quickly, efficiently, and decisively will command much respect from the other factions. hence, we shoot straight (<- which is right in with role playing, by the way).

Any ways. Just a thought that occured to me after reading his post, that would surely shake something (or anything) from them (him). then we would be in better position on which way to head concerning an alliance with another faction.

	20-10-2004 03:17									#364
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Thing is, Illuminatus can not be emailed through Apolyton. He's disabled that function. I'm just thinking, if he keeps his cool like any sane person would, he'd spoonfeed us as much false information as possible. Just asking for things, no, I don't think it's *that* effective... and I doubt they're so desperate after EthCalc that they'd just surrender intel to us just because.

	20-10-2004 04:37									#365
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Hmm, I think this situation requires a soft approach, and not us trying to increase the severity of the dispute. May I suggest I post the following reply? Illuminatus and I know each other from the previous ACDG, and I haven't participated in difficult negotiations between our factions yet, so who knows he'll have more goodwill towards me.

Hi Lord Illuminatus!

quote: I have news from our Lords. You would probably find out that not all factions would trade Gene Splicing for IA, since Gene Splicing without IA is mostly unusable - we did you a favour by trading you IA - Angels would probably ask much more. Giving you IA should influence your growth greatly.

Please let's agree to disagree. I cannot see what good this discussion could bring.

quote: Also, until we get some news from Sparta about possible trading of Ethical Calculus I have been informed not to negotiate about possible technology exchanges for the time being.

We of the Junta have been discussing thoroughly the possibility of trading you Ethical Calculus, and a proposal from our side may follow soon. However the long time it's been taking us to reply is certainly not due to an unwillingness to trade with you. Rather it's because we do not know what you could possibly give us in return for our technology! While we've been offering a couple techs for sale - EthCalc, DocFlex, SotHB and perhaps a few others; I don't know, I'm not so involved in diplomacy - it is unclear to us what you can offer. That's why I'm glad you said this:

quote: However, we can easily offer you plenty of technologies now and in future should you decide to trade it.

To make trade between us easier and to give us an idea what you can offer us, could you please shed some openness on the following issues?

1) What are you currently researching? Would you be willing to coordinate our research so that you research techs we don't have yet, allowing us to trade techs you don't have to you? Including the possibility of leapfrogging?

2) What techs do you have we don't have yet?

3) Do you have sufficient credits? Would you be able to pay cash for techs?

4) Since you're in vendetta with Yang anyway, would you be willing to consider stealing techs from him, and then trade them to us?

This information should make it easier to promote trade between our factions.

Lt-Colonel Pedro 'Maniac' Riveira
Leader of the Pro-Gaian Wing

Last edited by Maniac on 20-10-2004 at 04:53

	20-10-2004 04:42									#366
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader We have contact with every faction that survived Planetfall. As well as the splinter groups from two of these (don't bother asking, I can't believe this myself). So unless your trying to add to the intrigue (gossip) network - it's for you time to come clean.

I'd steer clear of this for the time being.

They believe that we have not yet been in contact with morgan, so let's keep them in the dark as long as possible

	20-10-2004 07:18									#367
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'd steer clear of this for the time being. They believe that we have not yet been in contact with morgan, so let's keep them in the dark as long as possible

Yea. This is true.

Any ways; don't look like it sparked much interest.

	20-10-2004 09:28									#368
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Maniac: Feel free to post it, you are the Lt Colonel. Anything you can say to help will be... helpful

	20-10-2004 14:05									#369
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Okay, posted.

	20-10-2004 16:45									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Hmm, I think this situation requires a soft approach, ...

This was a good approach I reckon.

As for your approach KrysiasKrusader, it would sure have been very interesting, though I don't like the idea of jumping out of character in diplomatic contacts. I agree with the idea of showing rifts within the Junta, such as this:

quote: Lt-Colonel Pedro 'Maniac' Riveira Leader of the Pro-Gaian Wing

(emphasis added)


Poor Gaians ... They could see this as a very subtle implied threat that there indeed is an Anti-Gaian Wing, and that it is sufficiently large to warrant that line in your signature. If they fail to give us good answers to these questions, it will only serve to boost the numbers of that wing.

	20-10-2004 16:49									#371
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Yup. Pro-Gaian implies the existence of anti-Gaian, should make them shake a little

	21-10-2004 05:08									#372
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Okay, getting stuff done:

quote: I confirm everything Lt. Colonel Maniac has said or will say, considering he's one of the two leaders of the Spartan Federation. My very mandate of office comes directly from him. Here are a few proposals for trades with Doc Flex and Eth Calc. Since we can't know what you'll want, you'll have to modify them if you don't find them agreeable. All of tech trades will by default entail a trade embargo covering third parties for a duration of 15 mission years. 1) We will give you Ethical Calculus. You will in turn give us 15 credits for 10 turns as a licensing fee for our information. Also, you must agree to refrain from building Citizen's Defence Force, since the discovery leading to that project, Intellectual Integrity, will be a direct result of our intellectual property. 2) We will give you Ethical Calculus. You must agree to not build CDF. You offer us a technology in turn. 3) We will give you Doctrine: Flexibility. In turn, you will give us Social Psych and 50 credits, in recognition that while D:F is a level two technology, Social Psych is a level one technology. 4) We will give you Doctrine: Flexibility. In turn, you will give us whatever you want to suggest. All things considered, it's mostly open season, but agreeing to 1) and 3) will most likely get you the techs you are after.

	22-10-2004 04:53									#373
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Kassi:

Maniac suggested - and I strongly endorse it - that we go back to the bargaining table with the Gaians and tell them that we have delliberated further and are prepared to offer Doctrine Flexibility only on the condition that they change their current research from Doc Flex to HEC, and send us that in settlement the year they research it

(They'll prolly think that we have them infiltrated)

We may have to sweeten our terms for Ethical Calculus as a result of their complying - send it to them now, but perhaps the 15 ec's licence fee is complete the year after they do give us HEC (so maybe all we get is 90 ec's or 105 ec's). But the no CDF and 15 year trade embargo should still apply

Thoughts from the others?

(And maybe it's post the Flex for HEC post, with the addition "We might be willing, as a result, to negotiate a lower licence fee or a lesser term for your obtaining Ethical Calculus from us"

	22-10-2004 05:31									#374
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quote: Maniac suggested - and I strongly endorse it - that we go back to the bargaining table with the Gaians and tell them that we have delliberated further and are prepared to offer Doctrine Flexibility only on the condition that they change their current research from Doc Flex to HEC, and send us that in settlement the year they research it

I already suggested that. I didn't say it was the only thing we'll agree to, though.

I will give them as-subtle-a-hint-as-possible that proposal #5, the one Maniac came up with, is our most favoured one. I never guaranteed automatic Junta approval on any of the other four proposals, so basically it's the same thing, but without us doing the good old flipflop all over again. I'll throw in the EthCalc line to lure them in a bit, as well. (Again, they're just proposals, open for negotiation, modification, etc.)

	22-10-2004 05:36									#375
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Just saw your edited post and explanation of the edit in the Embassy. They have the turn, so maybe something will happen this turn after all!!

	22-10-2004 05:48									#376
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Now, with Morgan possibly out of the picture, the Gaian door is again in our sights. Should we try to warm up them a little (in a positive sense)? I was thinking of maybe pulling a googlie and sending Illuminatus an unofficial "memorandum" where I lament the evils of the Morganites, extol the possible compatibilities of Spartan and Gaian ideology and generally just let them know that we know more about the Morgans than you do and that they are going to be a big problem if we let them go unchecked.

Alternatively, someone else could do this, since it might be a good idea to keep my role in our "splintering" relatively neutral, so the factions can always be sure that the Chief Diplomat's possible bias won't influence him, and that he's really the "voice of Sparta", not the "voice of the Gaian-minded Spartans".

I have to emphasise that we really could use a pactmate before we go after Zak. With the Gaians that might not be as easy, however...

	22-10-2004 06:30									#377
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I'd like to know why we really need a pactmate before trouncing on an AI faction.

I'd like to know why we've seem to have had a sudden reversal in our general strategy (again).

	22-10-2004 06:49									#378
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader I'd like to know why we've seem to have had a sudden reversal in our general strategy (again).

Hmmm - I never did see these shifts as "reversals in our strategy" - more as discussions about what our strategy should be

Do we yet have a strategy?

Way back, (when the earth was young, yadda yadda, etc) we discussed what Sparta could do. It was felt then that enslaving Zak (if the game mechanics would allow him to be subservient to 2 factions) would be a good avenue to pursue. get him beefed up reserach wise, in a submissive pact to us, and either ensure that he gets the HSA, or else we'll garrison probes in his bases.

(A scenario can be built to have a faction subservient to 2 others, but I've never been able to test it in game play - or had the patience to, perhaps)

Then when we saw that Yang had the tech lead, we started discussing whether taking him out was maybe the best way to go, and trade with Zak/steal from Zak for what we needed

Only last turn did we infiltrate Zak, and saw how pitifully weak his defenses are (versus Yang's 37 1-2-2's or whatever), so now the discussion has veered again.

Waaaay back, also, the Gaians were identified as prolly the last faction standing with us (elites versus their wormy army), then we (I) plotted the Morgan link with a leapfrog pact, and we blueskied that.

Now we are again looking at/discussing a Uni invasion & enslavement, followed (inevitably) by a war with Lal.

A pactmate would be useful - not so much that we need one to assist militarily, but to assist diplomatically

ie, if it is seen as purely a Spareta grab for the AI's assets, we'll quickly trigger the 3 : 1 that we don't want.

But, for example, if it's seen as, say, a Sparta-Gaian alliance against the AI in general (our elites plus their wormy army taking on allcomers from the AI side), then Morgan and the Angels will be less fearful and suspicious of us. And if it drove them into each others arms, and loosened the apparent Angels-Gaian axis, then so much the better from our point of view.

So, in summary, I don't see it as a Strategy reversal at all (as, honestly, I don't think we've developed our military startegy yet) And I see a pactmate as being useful to avoid the ganging up that would cripple us in this game.

	22-10-2004 06:54									#379
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Hmmm - I never did see these shifts as "reversals in our strategy" - more as discussions about what our strategy should be Do we yet have a strategy?

Good point, and well said.

I have a hard time getting my words to mean what I'm thinking. And since I have a hard time thinking sometimes, this makes it doubly confusing for me.
(laugh!).

I'll be back here a little later. I'm working on a post in the covert thread for now...


Edit: And now I'm here...

quote: Originally posted by Googlie A pactmate would be useful - not so much that we need one to assist militarily, but to assist diplomatically if it is seen as purely a Spareta grab for the AI's assets, we'll quickly trigger the 3 : 1 that we don't want.

Ahhh... Okay. Yes. That is wise, and am totally in agreement.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie So, in summary, I don't see it as a Strategy reversal at all (as, honestly, I don't think we've developed our military startegy yet) And I see a pactmate as being useful to avoid the ganging up that would cripple us in this game.

Bon, temps mieux.

No. We don't really have a strategy.

Be nice if we could get one going. Too bad talks are always so slow with the other factions, it seems.

I've compiled a list in the general covert thread of our likely opponents in the other factions. perhaps if we selected to eliminate the strongest camp first, and worked our way to leaving the weakest for last.

	22-10-2004 16:59									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Thoughts from the others?

I like it.
Something else we could add is that we'll only give the Gaians DocFlex two turns before they would research it.
The official reason would be that it would be unfair if they had the ability to use DocFlex way before we gain the ability to use HEC.
The real reason would be because they then have to tell when they will research DocFlex, which is useful information to determine how long we should make the no-trade terms with the Angels.

	22-10-2004 21:22									#381
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I've been using Minute Mirage's Technology Choices Chart to see if the Gaians could select High Energy Chemistry after we gave them EthCalc & DocFlex. Problem is of course we don't know for sure what techs they have. Are we sure they have SocPsych & ProgPsych? This of course makes a great difference as currently (without the Psychs) HEC is at #2 of the mod3. (For those who don't know what I'm talking about, have a look at the last link in the Factional Datalinks.) If they have exactly one of those two techs (thus not none or both), they'll be unable to select HEC (and also DocLoy btw should SocPsych be that one tech). Also in the embassy Illuminatus IIRC said that they'll steal a tech from the Hive in two turns. If that's true, that complicates the situation even more of course.

Attachment: smac(x)_technology_choices_gaia.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	22-10-2004 21:35									#382
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But if I'm right, then they'll steal the highest level tech that the Hive has - and his highest are only level 2 techs:

Flex
Polysoft
Nonlinear Math
Doc Loyalty

The game mechanics rate each tech with an "importance" number, which relates to the faction's priorities and aversions. The Gaians' is Explore, and Flex is an explore tech, so that will be ranked highest by the game engine. So they'd steal Flex.

(but if it's 2146 before their probe steals, they'd then get Yang's newly discovered (2145) Optical Computers, a higher, level 3, tech)

(Were it us, we'd get Doc Loyalty before Polysoft, 'cos the former is a Conquer (Powers's our priority) while the latter is a discover tech)

	22-10-2004 21:44									#383
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Wow, interesting info!

A question, when you're playing blind research, do the research priorities affect what tech you steal, or is it solely determined by the faction's inherent priorities?

	22-10-2004 21:55									#384
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I believe that your research priorities would factor into the engine

It'd be easy to test with a scenario - give my faction (say the Uni) a bunch of all 4 types of techs, then go to, say, Sparta as an AI but make its priority, say, discover. Then plant a couple of probes outside one of my bases and see what they steal

That'd reveal whether it defaulted to the Faction's core value in Alphax.txt or whether it was influenced by looking up the in-game priorities

	22-10-2004 22:01									#385
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Here's the extract from alphax.txt regarding the tech tree (my bolding and italics):

Name, id, ai-mil, ai-tech, ai-infra, ai-colonize, preq(1), preq(2), flag

(although it says ai- this and ai- that, some years ago the tests illustrated that it also applied to human-controlled factions in PBEMs)

Doctrine: Flexibility, DocFlex, 2, 0, 1, 4, Mobile, None, 000000000

Doctrine: Loyalty, DocLoy, 3, 0, 2, 2, Mobile, Psych, 000000000

Thus to a colonizing (explore) faction, Flex is the more important tech

	23-10-2004 07:38									#387
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quote: Doctrine: Flexibility, DocFlex, 2, 0, 1, 4, Mobile, None, 000000000 Doctrine: Loyalty, DocLoy, 3, 0, 2, 2, Mobile, Psych, 000000000

I remember reading a post, oh... gotta be years ago now, where someone actually cracked the code for how the computer selects what you'll be getting next while in blind research.
Anybody know what I'm talking about?

	24-10-2004 06:01									#388
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Will we give the Gaians any formal response to the their trade refusal, or just keep absolute silence?

	24-10-2004 06:20									#389
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We discussed what we should do, and I think there was a good proposal from someone, but it's in some other thread and I can't find it right now.

	24-10-2004 06:51									#390
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Was it this?

quote: Author unknown I'd be inclined to release an official communiqué to both factions that because of the abrupt refusal of all our possible and open proposals by the Gaians, we have decided only to trade techs to both factions at the same time, and not to only one faction.