20-10-2004 09:08									#61
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How about trading Doc Flex to the Gaians straight up for Social psych, with the usual embargo on on-trading, then trade it straight up to the Angels for Ind econ, with no embargo.

Then we turn around and either trade Ind econ to Zak for Biogen or Prog Psych, and to Lal for the other missing one

That way we'll get 3 techs for 1, no probe losses, no hassle

	20-10-2004 09:18									#62
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Going back to their p[osting in the Embassy:

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder in the Embassy The staff of the Commercial Ops Centre have asked me to inquire about the possibility of acquiring Doctrine: Flexibility. Is this technology tradeble for their Spartan counterparts, and so yes, what sort(s) of reward would be required for this technology?

Why do they assume we have it (if their allies, the Gaians, were offering it to us in the future for a "now" trade"}

	20-10-2004 09:22									#63
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I'm fine with giving the Angels DocFlex for IndEcon, but only Social Psych from the Gaians? Nothing else? Plus the Gaians'll still be wanting EthCalc.

	20-10-2004 09:46									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia but only Social Psych from the Gaians? Nothing else?

Good point - after we made such a fuss about the level for level tech trades early in our relationship

For Soc Psych plus 50 ec's?

quote: Plus the Gaians'll still be wanting EthCalc.

I still think we should float the "Licence fee" concept to all teams - if at the end of the day we walk away with 300 to 450 ec's for a somewhat nefariously acquired tech, then i think we've done exceptionally well

Greed will get us nothing but bad vibes and maybe that 3 versus 1 gangup that we don't want.

So I keep going back to that original concept with the trade embargo, the agreement not to build the CDF and the lease payments (I liked Maniac's compromise of 15 per year for 10 years. - that has the advantage for us too that it uses up their liquidity, and they can't thus spend it on crawler or unit upgrades or rush builds, while we, of course, would use that revenue for exactly that)

But we'll never know if its even of interest to the others, 'cos we're still talking about how huge the pie will be (that's not even baked yet)

	20-10-2004 09:50									#65
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Yeh. I'll agree with selling EthCalc to the Gaians for the terms you described and 15 credits for 10 years. And with selling DocFlex for SOcPsych for 50 credits, and for IndEcon to the Angels. Now just someone else please agree!

	20-10-2004 10:13									#66
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Yea. Sure. Fine. Approved.



(I also just saw the other thread about being out of step. I'll make some coffee and start responding to that one...)

	20-10-2004 13:43									#67
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Okay! I'll start drafting up the proposals.

	20-10-2004 14:14									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Why do they assume we have it (if their allies, the Gaians, were offering it to us in the future for a "now" trade"}

Err, I told GeoModder a while ago. I assumed that was common knowledge as the logical Spartan strategy. I also said we'd be willing to trade them anything the Angels requested, but we're wondering what the Angels could give in return. I've asked if they'd be willing to research HEC for us, and Geo says he'll think about it and propose it to the Angels.

	20-10-2004 14:17									#69
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I'd like the Gaian EthCalc trade and the Angel DocFlex<->IndEcon trade. I don't see the point though of buying SocPsych from the Gaians when we could get steal it from both Zak or Yang, but I'm in the minority so I guess I'll just shut up.

	20-10-2004 14:31									#70
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I could always ask them, what would they like to offer us, instead of asking for Social Psych. That never hurts.

	20-10-2004 17:24									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Err, I told GeoModder a while ago.

, , my fellow officer. A serious breach of discipline. (That's the Junta reprimanding you across the Council table)

But it's done now, so the Gaians will already know.

(Did you also happen to divulge that we had Morgan's commlink?)

G GLIE

PS: EDIT: To fellow Members of the Junta:

Should Lt Colonel Maniac appear before a Court Martial to explain this egregious breach of Junta solidarity (or are Lt Colonels immune to the Kangaroo Court type of disciplinary actioin that we meted out to Captain - now Lieutenant - Snoddasmannen?

Lt.Colonel Googlie,
Recording Officer to the Junta

	20-10-2004 17:39									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac I don't see the point though of buying SocPsych from the Gaians when we could get steal it from both Zak or Yang

I thought the idea was for them to "buy" Doc Flex from us for Social Psych +50 ec's?

I'd agree it's a nono if we were shelling out our hard earned ec's for something we could probesteal, but that's not the suggestion.

And the purpose of getting it in trade (as with Ind econ, Prog Psych and Biogenetics) is just this:

After investing 2 or 3 turns in getting a probe team to a port, moving the trannie there, and watching the probe teams playing bridge or poker for three to five turns while the trannie approaches a different Uni port or a Hive port, and we finally steal, and get .................. biogenetics ............. I think most of us would pissed off.
Especially if we lost the probe team in the effort.

So I'm advocating that we trade for any tech that another faction has, and reserve our precious probes for extracting meaningful ones from the AI

	20-10-2004 17:49									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie , , my fellow officer. A serious breach of discipline. (That's the Junta reprimanding you across the Council table)

Yeah, it's sometimes annoying when Geo talks about the ACDG. Then he for example asks "You are planning to attack the Hive right? That's why you didn't research Industrial Automation. You went for impact weapons, didn't you! " I just smile then, and then he sometimes sees it as a confirmation. (So probably he's currently thinking we're planning to invade Yang.) Anyway, when he next visits I could tell him I don't want to talk about the ACDG?

quote: (Did you also happen to divulge that we had Morgan's commlink?)

Nope.

	20-10-2004 17:54									#74
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(see my Morgan thread post)

	21-10-2004 05:12									#75
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quote: The Junta has decided to ask you the technology called Industrial Economics in exchange. Note that all of our tech exchanges by default entail a 15 year embargo covering trade to third parties (including the transfer of units with abilities given by said tech to a third faction to reverse engineer the ability). Would you also be interested in negotiating a trade for Ethical Calculus? The going price is 15 credits for 10 mission years. You must also agree to not build Citizen's Defence Force, since Intellectual Integrity will be a derivative of our intellectual property. (I apologize if the Angel faction feels insulted at the term, you may suggest a better one if you find it uncomfortable.)

	21-10-2004 17:08									#76
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Never mind.

Last edited by Maniac on 21-10-2004 at 17:33

	21-10-2004 17:42									#77
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What did I do wrong this time?

	21-10-2004 17:54									#78
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I see that they will trade Ind Econ for Doc Flex, but want a 3 year embargo (just in time to pass it on to the Gaians, who'll research it themselves "just before the decade is out" (their own words)

So compromise at 6 years? (ie, 2150 if traded in 2144)

But I wouodn't budge on the fifteen for Ethcalc, just in case only they are interested in it

G

	21-10-2004 18:41									#79
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3+15 is 18. Halve that, and you get nine years worth of embargo. That is a compromise. Six would be caving in.

	21-10-2004 18:48									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia What did I do wrong this time?

Nothing. My post originally contained a comment on Geo's proposal to lower the no-trade term to three years, which I didn't like. Personally I think we're giving away our technological advantage too easily (certainly now it appears the Gaians and Angels would rather trade among themselves than with us, meaning giving them techs cheaply is not in our advantage and won't improve relations - it simply strengthens our future enemies). However Googlie thinks the opposite as he wants the other factions to have more fun if I understand correctly. That's why I've deleted my message, as I think I'll try to keep out of foreign affairs to not have to disagree with Googlie and reduce his enjoyment of the ACDG, and focus more on the Spartan domestic economy (that's what I told myself I'd do at the start of the ACDG anyway). Economy is what I'm best at anyway. Also I'm not so good at diplomatic negotiations, and always seem to have the most isolationist thoughts and propose the most expensive trades, so my foreign affairs opinion isn't representative for the overall Spartan opinion anyway.

	21-10-2004 19:00									#81
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I still want to make a case for the tech trades we've been proposing as of late, since I don't think anything should be approved without critical consideration.

Regarding Ethical Calculus. It will allow the others to run Democracy, which admittedly is going to be a boon to others. However, if the trade happens, our terms mean that we'll have a stronger stranglehold on Citizen's Defence Force. All three human factions might end up not building it because we've asked them to based on this trade.

Then there is the matter of not hoarding techs. While we must keep an advantage, if the advantage is too strong early on we'll end up gangra... err, the others will gang up on us. This must be avoided at all costs.

Hoarding will also get very, very, difficult when the elections happen, as the other factions will have a chance to do leapfrogging and ask each other for the best offers. We have a monopoly now and should cash in on it to the best of our abilities, and use this money to build up our military-industrial complex.

Selling Doc:Flex won't be a concern when we have Doc:Init since we can churn out superior, faster ships. In turn we'll get low tier techs so that our probe loot will be richer and some more cash.

I hope you won't ignore foreign affairs completely, as it's imperative that we had the "builders" take part so that we do trades that benefit the faction as a whole in terms of progress and infrastructure.

	21-10-2004 19:16									#82
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Maniac, No - you still have to give input.

And I think we keep ecol Eng for as long as possible (recognizing that Gene Splicing is the key to that, we can expect the Gaians to change to that if we give/trade them Doc Flex

But I like this thought we're developing re Morgan (Maniac ousting me from a leading position in the Junta, relations suddenly going a bit frostier with them, etc

(In fact, next week I'll be doing the trek from Vancouver to Palm Springs, so will be out of commission around the time the turn needs to be played. Maybe Maniac can play the 2144 turn, and that'll reinforce the impression that indeed I've been demoted)

I guess from our perspective, which faction would we be least threatened by (and that'd be the one to cultivate with some embargoed techs - maybe the Angels? - and it would make Maniac's chats with GeoModder less strained)

	21-10-2004 19:58									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I still want to make a case for the tech trades we've been proposing as of late, since I don't think anything should be approved without critical consideration.

I agree with the current by us proposed Ethcalc & IndEcon trades. I just hope we won't compromise too much to please the Gaians & Angels, as they seem to have a strong cooperation and thus at the moment conflict seems inevitable whatever we do.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie And I think we keep ecol Eng for as long as possible (recognizing that Gene Splicing is the key to that, we can expect the Gaians to change to that if we give/trade them Doc Flex

If we'd want to prevent them getting EcoEng too soon, we could always tell them we only want to trade DocFlex if they then next switch to a research project of our choice. HEC comes to mind for example.

Problem is of course the Gaians can soon trade gene splicing to the Angels, so it's possible the Angels will research EcoEng soon anyway.

quote: (In fact, next week I'll be doing the trek from Vancouver to Palm Springs, so will be out of commission around the time the turn needs to be played. Maybe Maniac can play the 2144 turn, and that'll reinforce the impression that indeed I've been demoted)

That would only be possible if the turn arrives in the weekend though.

Btw, does moving to Palm Springs means you'll be online less? IIRC you were then active less last year among other reasons because you had a less comfortable PC environment.

	22-10-2004 03:50									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Btw, does moving to Palm Springs means you'll be online less? IIRC you were then active less last year among other reasons because you had a less comfortable PC environment.

Naw - I finally got that one sorted out. I'm renting the same condo, and in the summer the landlord (lives in Boston) e-mailed me to ask what it needed, so I said "A computer hutch and a big leather swivel reclining chair."

He's been there these first 2 weeks of October, and has e-mailed me to say they are now in place in the second bedroom.

So it won't be an issue this winter.

G.

	22-10-2004 04:10									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac If we'd want to prevent them getting EcoEng too soon, we could always tell them we only want to trade DocFlex if they then next switch to a research project of our choice. HEC comes to mind for example.

That's brilliant!!.. They are 5 turns - or maybe fewer - away from Flex, so tell them we'll trade them Flex only if they change to HEC and pass it to us when researched (level 2 for level 2, makes sense)

And if they stall, telling us that we could get it in 9 years or seomething like that, it'll reinforce my belief that the Angels are researching it right now (having gotten Applied physics 2 years ago) and that the Gaians are going to then change to something else (like Ethcalc) and get HEC from the Angels for onward transmission to us

quote: Problem is of course the Gaians can soon trade gene splicing to the Angels, so it's possible the Angels will research EcoEng soon anyway.

Well, see my thoughts above. I figure it's still 15 - 20 turns away for the Angels and the Gaians, and longer for Morgan if we hold our resolve.

We gotta gang form those boreholes!! (maybe even taking the 2 formers NW and NE of OA off their roadbuilding on those rocky tiles and getting them to a good borehole site - down by GH?)

	22-10-2004 04:42									#86
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I proposed Maniac's idea (DocFlex for any tech we want) to the Gaians in the embassy. I like it.

	22-10-2004 06:37									#87
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Don't cave in to the Angels reduction to 3 years.

Edit: 4 is not a compromise either.

	22-10-2004 06:52									#88
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Kassi has already suggested 9 years (the mean of our 15 and their 3)

I'd settle for anything after 2150 (by then the Gaians will have discovered Flex on their own, so the embargo will mean nothing after that)

	22-10-2004 17:04									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Kassi has already suggested 9 years (the mean of our 15 and their 3) I'd settle for anything after 2150 (by then the Gaians will have discovered Flex on their own, so the embargo will mean nothing after that)

The Gaians could of course always temporarily slow down their research so they could trade with the Angels after all after 2150. That's why I like the 9 years: it gives us a safety margin.

Edit:
Oh yeah, IIRC Googlie suggested somewhere to reduce the no-trade term for DocFlex, but not for EthCalc. That's why I've posted the following in the Angel embassy supposedly as a question to Kassiopeia:

quote: Was this embargo reduction for both trade proposals, or only for the DocFlex<->IndEcon trade?

This gives us the ability to still decide if the embargo reduction is for one or both deals.

	22-10-2004 22:38									#90
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I threw this into the mix just for the heck of it:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy Reply to : GeoModder -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, the embargo timeframe, while understandable, is too long for making common sense. It is effectively embargoing to exchange with any other party that way while there is still a chance it is a usefull trading technology. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not normally butt in on diplomatic exchanges (but heck, I've already been discplined once by the Junta - what else can they do - make me Staff Sergeant?) Doctrine Flexibility is currently the intellectual property of the Spartan Federation (as is Industrial Economics that of the Data Angels) Why would we even countenance our allowing you to trade our intellectual property to any third party? Captain Googlie

(Maybe they'll be quick to accept that 9 year term!!