10-11-2004 21:15									#151
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Hmm, forgot to attach the screenie.

Btw, how would this deal be arranged? Do we first give them all three techs pre-accepted right now, and they then DocLoy when they research it? Or rather SocPsych & DocMob now, while giving DocFlex after or at the same time as we get DocLoy?

Attachment: techangel2146.jpg
This has been downloaded 30 time(s).

	10-11-2004 21:46									#152
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And that's a good point. The giving of Dopc Flex originally was 'cos I erroneously (until pointed out by argenine) thought that the Angels were researching that.

right now, the deal on the table is all 3 from us this turn, pre-accepted.

If they come back with a counter, that we can live with, (eg we'd rather have Ecol Eng, as that would be one of our choices instead of Loyalty) then I can suggest delaying sending them Flex (Ecol Eng) as the "earnest money" for their transmitting Loyalty to us

	10-11-2004 21:49									#153
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I've posted a public "question" to you in the embassy asking what you would think of sending DocFlex at the same time as receiving DocLoy. This could act as a bridge between your post (where you propose to send DocFlex pre-accepted) and a new position regarding DocFlex, without us looking untrustworthy or sneakily changing our mind.

	10-11-2004 22:03									#154
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Just saw it

(for a while I couildn't get into the Angels' Embassy, and thought that a Gaian protester might have "bombed" it.)

Let's see how they respond

I guess right now we=re fairly quick off the mark in negotiations 'cos there's currently just the 4 of us active (Maniac, Googlie, Kassiopeia and Snoddasmannen) so we can make quick decisions and strategy shifts. Not like we need to run a poll or anything.

We prolly should re-open the Gaian one now that our point has been made.

I'll do a short piece later today about Major Maniac with Spartan Kel, back from manoevers, storming to the Embassy and demanding that it be re-opened - then you can be restored to Lt Col again

	10-11-2004 23:20									#155
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This from the Embassy:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Mart7x5 of the Angels To Spartan Federation, Our current research status allows for finalizing the agreement you propose also next turn without any disadvantage. We do not expect to complete a new technology in the next turn. Thus we can discuss it further without need to agree upon it in the MY 2146 in order not to loose its benefits. There are important issues, which will require from us further discussion. We cannot guarantee that we will resolve all matters before the extension of 24 h given for the advancement of the current turn expires. Sincerely, IT Mart

My surmise is that they are researching Sopc Psych, with a 2148 or 9 delivery date. The leapfrog prolly was that the Gaians would give them Soc Psych in 2147 and they'd change to Doc Mobility. The G's would send Doc Mobility to them when our embargo expired, whereupon they'd then change to Dof Flex

(That's why the Gaians could talk of giving us Soc Psych and Doc Flex before the end of the devade)

Of course, I've been wrong before ................

But either the ante'll be upped (in that they still will get Soc Psych and Doc Flex from the Gaians, so might want Ethical Calculus or Ecol Eng from us for Loyalty - what's our position on that?)

or

They'll go back to the gaians and barter somethign else as they're confident of getting Psych, Mobility and Flex from us

Either way, it looke like we won't need to antagonize yang by stealing Loyalty

	10-11-2004 23:54									#156
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I've replied in teh Embassy"

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy To: IT Mart One of the reasons we were suggesting holding the turn open was to give you the choice of accepting Social Psych from us in 2147 (in addition to the other techs in the deal) for the futures of Doc Loyalty, as opposed to accepting it from the Gaians in that turn (We were unsure if the Data Angels had any formal or informal "leapfrog" in progress with the Gaian Union and wanted to give you a choice as to the course of action that best suited your needs.) But if we are assuming that the Gaians won't send Social Psych to the Data Angels on a pre-accepted basis, then as you say, there will be time next year - with the benefit of a few days more deliberation - to consumate a deal (and if the Gaian Union should send Social Psych on a pre-accepted basis in 2147, then it will be because the Data Angels have decided that is the course of action they wish to follow.) It would seem that Sparta should not delay any further the onward transmission of the 2146 turn As a matter of curiosity, we are now deducing - from comments made by the Gaians earlier in the decade that they could send us Social Psych and Doctrine Flexibility before decade's end - that you are both currently researching Social Psych, and that upon the Gaians transmitting it to you in 2147, you would change to Doc Mobility, which the Gaians would then send to you in 2148 when our trade embargo with the Gaians expires (although they believe it should be 2147) upon which receipt the Angels would change to Doc Flexibility in time for its arrival in 2148 or 2149. Is this deduction correct? Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie

I see no need to hold up the turn any longer, so I'll wrap it up and post it.

	13-11-2004 00:36									#157
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Illuminatus posted this in the embassy:

quote: Moreover the manifesto is an emergency work, constructed only to convince us to give you Doctrine: Loyalty without any gains. There is no details on sharing the technologies or on what SPs would each faction get - since you are intend to get Int:Int we assume you just want to get CN and CDF + Fusion so you can start world conquest. Also, nothing like this has been mentioned to us, or Angels, before. You can assume how we will react to this proposal.

It is of course unsure if he refers to "we" as "the Gaians" or "the Gaians and Angels", but just in case, should we ask the Angels:

"It's been a while we last heard from you. In the meanwhile we have received word from the Gaians you plan to refuse our offer for cooperation regarding our proposed leapfrogging. Is this true, or is that just Gaian overconfidence? Just wondering if we should spend more time discussing with you, or switch to Plan C: leapfrog with the Morganites."

I'm not sure whether we should include the last sentence. It could lead to them agreeing now in fear of losing three potential techs. On the other hand they could just perceive it as a threat and be pissed off big time.

	13-11-2004 00:56									#158
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I'd be inclined to vary it slightly (my changes in blue):

"It's been a while we last heard from you. (but that's understandable, as the Gaians currently have the turn and are no doubt in deep discussions with you) In the meanwhile we have received word from them that you plan to refuse our offer for cooperation regarding our proposed leapfrogging. Is this true, or is that just Gaian overconfidence? Just wondering if we should spend more time discussing with you, or switch to Plan C: try to keep the Command Nexus out of Hive clutches by seeing if the Morganites are interested in a modest leapfrog with us ."

IMO, That's not quite so threatening to the G's and A's

	13-11-2004 01:34									#159
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Okay, I'll post the Angel and Morganite messages with the changes you propose.

	13-11-2004 19:54									#160
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Operative GeoModder (a demotion?) has replied:

quote: Posted in the Embassy gy GeoModder of the Angels Atm there seems to be no definite proposal for mutual research -or tech trade plan with the Spartans, so we're unsure whether or not there is something to discuss. Also, earlier proposed deals seem off the table as Gaian-Spartan negotiations have once again started. And whatever other factions may mention about our stance towards other factions, we would appreciate not to act on this info before checking if hearsay is true or not. So, is there any (definite) Spartan proposal for trading or mutual research? Operative GeoModder

and I have responded:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Googlie Hmm - I thought our last proposal, with the Maniac proposed amendment, was still on the table for discussion: ************************************************* The Spartan Federation will send - this turn, pre-accepted - to the Data Angels the technologies of: Social Psych Doctrine Mobility In consideration for which, the Data Angels undertake: to change their research to Doctrine: Loyalty, and send it to us the year they research it (only if this is before 2150) And following such transmission of Doctrine: Loyalty to the Spartan Federation by the Data Angels: Sparta will transmit Doctrine: Flexibility to the Angels In consideration of which, the Data Angels undertake: not to build the Command Nexus not to trade Doctrine: Loyalty or Doctrine: Flexibility to third parties until the later of: 1) five years following the date of such transfer of Doctrine: Loyalty from the Data Angels to the Spartan Federation, or: 2) the Spartan Federation completing the Command Nexus ************************************************* This proposal was made when we (wrongly) assumed that the Data Angels were researching Doctrine Flexibility (to enable the leapfrog to be effective). As this is not the case, we offered to substitute another technology in lieu of Doctrine Flexibility if that suited the Data Angels' Strategic Plan better, and we suggested Ecological Engineering. However, for that technology we would require a ten-year trade embargo. This was what Lieutenant-Colonel Maniac alluded to when he made the comment: "It's been a while since we last heard from you" - we had assumed that you would respond in some fashion to what we believed were alternatives on the table. (and Sparta-Gaians' "negotiations" have hardly started - although we have re-opened the Embassy - more like recriminations have started. Indeed the Gaian Union have indicated that they were just hours away from declaring Vendetta on the Spartan Federation!!) Lietenant-Colonel Googlie

	13-11-2004 20:03									#161
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Hmm, seeing the Gaians are considering to declare vendetta upon us, should we not be stricter towards DocFlex? Eg "not to trade DocFlex to the Gaians unless they're within five years of researching that technology themselves". Or do you think they would then refuse the deal?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Operative GeoModder (a demotion?)

I presume because he's going to New Zealand for a couple months.

	15-11-2004 01:44									#162
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My thoughts on the Angels counter proposal:

quote: Posted by Mart7x5 in the Embassy To Spartan Federation, Our current research agreement with the Gaian Union allows us to receive both Social Psych and Doctrine: Mobility from them. In fact we have an agreement with Gaian Union in progress, which we would like to complete. In this case we would like to propose the following changes to an agreement currently being discussed with the Spartan Federation: 1. Data Angels will transfer to Spartan Federation: - Doctrine Loyality - A technology of choice (we can decide upon it) in exchange for: - Doctrine: Flexibility - Ethical Calculus 2. Data Angels will not interfere in Spartan Federation plans to complete Command Nexus. We guarantee that we will not attempt to complete this secret project. We will also not trade Doctrine Loyality to other factions before Spartan Federation builds Command Nexus. 3. Spartan Federation will not embargo both Doctrine: Flexibility and Ethical Calculus. Alternatively these technologies will not be embargoed beyond MY 2153. We realize that both Doctrine: Flexibility and Ethical Calculus are very valuable technologies, but their exchange for Doctrine: Loyality and a second technology, plus our assuring of building by Spartan Federation of Command Nexus appears to be in the balance. However, if Spartan Federation members feel that this trade in the current proposed form is not satisfactory for you, we would like to discuss possible changes. Also, the second technology from Data Angels is not clearly indicated in this proposal and it should be decided by both our sides in order to sufficiently assess the value of this trade. We would like to stress, that obtaining from you Doctrine: Flexibility and Ethical Calculus and not having embargo on them or alternatively not having embargo beyond 2153 is presently of the most importance to Data Angels. We hope, that Spartan Federation will recognize this offer as beneficial to you. IT Mart

Let's forget trying to get the Command Nexus, and let Yang build it. (Let's face it, we can produxce units from a couple of key specialist bases like SC2, without needing Command Centers in every base - and anything that makes Yang stronger against the Gaians is worthwhile, IMO)

I'm adamantly opposed to giving the Angels anything that they then can trade on to the Gaians within any reaonable kind of timeframe to enable a joint leapfrog that sees the Gaians ascend the tech ladder quickly, after their invective agaisnt us. We would have started the CN after completing the MCC, wanting to complete it before Yang, say in 2154, so a five year embargo would then have expired in 2159.

So I'd counter with OK, but you can't trade either until 2160 at the earliest. They'll trun that down, as it doesn't fit with their joint Angels-Gaian research dynamic, but we can explain that there's no animosity bewtween Sparta and the Angels, but we'll cut off our nose to spite our face before we help the Gaians

(Of course, the Junta may outvote me - and I don't have a veto)

Googlie

	15-11-2004 03:48									#163
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I agree with your general policy here Googlie. We can't be helping the Gaians in any way. But we're in a rough spot, trapped between a giant and two lovers, one of which has a grudge against us. What to do, what to do ...

I think we should wait for the summit with the Gaians before we make up our mind, and we could tell the Angels as much. If the greenies retain a hostile attitude towards us, the Angels must understand that we do not approve of trading without embargos. If we clear things up with the Gaians, then we could have a more open approach.

The way they stress the no embargos bit sends shivers down my spine btw. This offer looks to be written in collaboration with the Gaians, and should be treated as such. At least, since they request no embargos, there is not yet an all out two-faction alliance against us, as our embargos would have no meaning in that case anyway.

	15-11-2004 03:50									#164
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Illuminatus has not replied to me wrt. the Summit, by the way. Someone could propose it in the embassy, in case Illuminatus is trying to shaft us.

	15-11-2004 03:55									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie and anything that makes Yang stronger against the Gaians is worthwhile, IMO)

Good point!

quote: We would have started the CN after completing the MCC, wanting to complete it before Yang, say in 2154

That would be impossible as far as I can see: building the MCC before the CN. Together they are worth 500 mins. The trance crawler and two artifacts provide 180. But our mineral production is simply too small to build ten more crawlers before 2154, to complete the CN as our second SP. So if we'd wanted to build the CN, it would in any case have to be before the MCC.

quote: So I'd counter with OK, but you can't trade either until 2160 at the earliest. They'll trun that down, as it doesn't fit with their joint Angels-Gaian research dynamic, but we can explain that there's no animosity bewtween Sparta and the Angels, but we'll cut off our nose to spite our face before we help the Gaians

Would you propose an embargo to 2160, expecting the Angels to shorten it somewhat, and then accept that shortening? Or would this be a manoeuvre to let the Angels refuse the deal, instead of us?

Anyway, my opinion about the Angels proposal: I'm wary about accepting any deal with PEACE-reincarnated that involves "A technology of choice to be provided somewhere in the vague future". It opens up too many possibilities for CyCon-like nasty tricks. As the Angels are in cahoots with our enemies - can I say that? - the Gaians, I consider it risky.

Perhaps an immediate sum of credits (120 credits?) instead of a second technology?

Btw, if we give them EthCalc, and they research DocLoy, they and the Gaians have IntInt lying open to them, and thus also the CDF.

	15-11-2004 05:27									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Btw, if we give them EthCalc, and they research DocLoy, they and the Gaians have IntInt lying open to them, and thus also the CDF.

That, too, had occurred to me. But given that the Maniac Manifesto had suggested a no-build commitment by both to the CN and the CDF, I don't think that it'd be out of line for us to say (if we go along with the Angels proposal) "OK - flex and ethical calculus it is then, but neither the Angels nor the Gaians build the CDF nor the CN, otherwise no deal"

But I think we should just say goodby to the CN and instead focus on getting the MCC built as soon after 2148 as posible.

Let the Angels and the Gaians research Doc Flex and Ethical Calculus themselves.

'Cos if we have to pick just 2 SP's out iof the 3 possibles (CN, CDF and MCC) I'd still go back to what we said in all our strategy discsussions - that the CDF and the MCC are the preferable ones to have

G.

	16-11-2004 02:56									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie That, too, had occurred to me. But given that the Maniac Manifesto had suggested a no-build commitment by both to the CN and the CDF, I don't think that it'd be out of line for us to say (if we go along with the Angels proposal) "OK - flex and ethical calculus it is then, but neither the Angels nor the Gaians build the CDF nor the CN, otherwise no deal"

Sounds good to me. We could even make IntInt the second mystery tech. Could we also ask for a small licensing fee for every time they trade DocFlex or EthCalc forward? Say 30ec?

We should also be prepared to take the CN off the table, as Yang will probably build it anyway unless we do (which is not too important imho).

Of course, this should all be pending a meeting with the Gaians. If they intend to fight us, we probably shouldn't trade with the Angels without embargos.

	16-11-2004 03:38									#168
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Otherwise we could just as suggested take the CN off the tabel, and suggest a straight DocLoy<->DocFlex deal, without any trade embargoes or SP restrictions whatsoever.
If we don't make a deal with the Angels, they'll probably switch their research to DocFlex or EthCalc anyway and trade it to the Gaians. So we wouldn't be helping the Gaians get extra crucial techs this way. Meanwhile we would have DocLoy, and thus a leapfrog with the Morganites towards IntInt would take much shorter.

	16-11-2004 03:51									#169
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That's actually not a bad idea - calling their bluff, so to speak (they are maintaining the etxra techs are to offest the embargo on trading anjd SP building), so just remove them, and it is simply. a level-2 for level 2 trade, no restrictions

Whether we actually go ahead and build the SP then becomes a strategic decision untrammelled by thoughts of "we must, 'cos we've invested so much in it"

Maniac - do you want to suggest that?

	16-11-2004 04:00									#170
	Increase Your PM Length

If you want me to I can write something in about an hour I think.
Otherwise if you've got time before that, go ahead!

	16-11-2004 04:19									#171
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OK - I can do it

	16-11-2004 04:35									#172
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posted

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Googlie To: Data Angels The Junta has deliberated and considered your counter proposal. The sticking point seems to be the length of any trade embargo, so here is a simplified offer: ************************************************** The Data Angels will send Doctrine: Loyalty to the Spartan Federation in 2148*, no strings attached on either side Same year, the Spartan Federation will send Doctrine: Flexibility to the Data Angels, no strings attached on either side * assuming that this is the year you would research the technology ************************************************* This will let you execute your leapfrog with the Gaian Union without any constraints set by us - and if the Data Angels or the Gaian Union should happen to beat the Hive to the Command Nexus, that's OK too (at least this offer might persuade the Gaians that we had no "hidden agenda" whereby all along all we wanted was to build the CN - they professed not to have believed us when we insisted it was just an afterthought) Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie

	16-11-2004 21:40									#173
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They have replied that they are considering the simplified proposal, but have asked:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Mart7x5 We would like to ask specifically about Ethical Calculus. Is it possible for Spartan Federation to exchange it with Data Angels. What Spartans would consider a fair price or conditions for this technology at this moment?

In the context of this rule (my bold italics):

quote: Extracted from the ACDG3 Rules If an aggressive probe action (anything except infiltration) is used on a faction you have a truce, treaty or pact with, you must select 'Declare Vendetta' in the dialog box that appears afterwards, and notify the victim of your transgression, unless you have received permission in advance. No notification is required in other cases.

How about :

150 ec's and a commitment never to trade it to the Gaian Union nor your permisson to letting them probe it from you (citing this rule)

	17-11-2004 04:12									#174
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Or, more spcifically:

Ethical Calculus - indeed a key technology for a faction wishing to boom its population, allowing a change to DEMOCRATIC government and the building of Children's Creches.

Our position is simple. The Junta sees 2 alternatives:

1) We will sell it to the Data Angels on the condition that it is never onward traded to the Gaian Union (including a prohibition on the Data Angels pre-approving a Gaian probe operation for it - and should the Gaians successfully probe it from the Angels, the resulting Vendetta between your factions must last at least five years). The price for option 1) is 200 ec's, cash up front.

2) We will sell it to the Data Angels on an unrestricted basis - you are free to do with it whatever you want. The price for option 2) is 500 ec's, cash up front.

Thoughts?

	18-11-2004 06:37									#175
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The turn is with the Gaians. They are prolly fine tuning their leaqpfrog strategy with the Data Angels, who are still waiting for a reply to their query on Ethical Calculus.

Does anyone have any objections to my posting the above suggested reply in the Angel's Embassy? (or a better idea maybe?)

	18-11-2004 18:33									#176
	Remove this text

I checked yesterday with the simulator and after giving the Angels a couple extra techs, their research cost rises to 398. It's of course also dependent on what techs the other factions have, so this number can naturally only be a rough estimate. Still, perhaps with option 1 you could perhaps include the following argument for our price:
"Our social analysts indicate your research cost after acquiring DocMob, SocPsych & DocFlex (but not DocLoy: it would be unfair to increase prices because you'd research a tech we'd like) will rise to approximately 400 labs. In other words, by buying EthCalc from us for 200c you would save 400 labs. You'd save half the cost in energy! We hope you will acknowledge this is a good deal for you indeed. "

	18-11-2004 19:00									#177
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Great observation

	18-11-2004 19:42									#178
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Posted:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Googlie To: Data Angels: Ethical Calculus - indeed a key technology for a faction wishing to boom its population, allowing a change to DEMOCRATIC government and the building of Children's Creches. Our position is simple. The Junta sees 2 alternatives: 1) We will sell it to the Data Angels on the condition that it is never onward traded to the Gaian Union (including a prohibition on the Data Angels pre-approving a Gaian probe operation for it - and should the Gaians successfully probe it from the Angels, the resulting Vendetta between your factions must last at least five years). The price for option 1) is 200 ec's, cash up front. (Our social analysts indicate your research cost after acquiring Doc: Mob, SocPsych & Doc: Flex (but not Doc: Loy - it would be unfair to increase prices because you'd research a tech we'd like) will rise to approximately 400 labs. In other words, by buying EthCalc from us for 200 ec's you would save 400 labs. You'd save half the cost in energy! We hope you will acknowledge this is a good deal for you indeed.) 2) We will sell it to the Data Angels on an unrestricted basis - you are free to do with it whatever you want. The price for option 2) is 500 ec's, cash up front.

	19-11-2004 20:53									#179
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I see we have a deal with the Data Angels - Doc Mobility for Doc Flex, no strings attached

quote: Posted by Mart7x5 in the Embassy To Spartan Federation, We would like to thank Spartan Federation for completion of our recent technology exchange. We have received Gene Splicing as planned. We hope that both our factions will benefit from the exchanged advances. Regarding Doctrine Loyality, we would like to inform you that we are finally in possesion of this technology. We agreed within our faction to proceed according to the counterproposal sent by you for exchanging the two technologies: Doctrine Loyality for Doctrine Flexibility. We will send Doctrine Loyality yet in this MY 2148. We ask you for Doctrine Flexibility in return, as planned. We believe that Spartan Federation will be able to build Command Nexus before Chairman Yang would be able to do it. We also hope that this Secret Project will be very helpful for the Spartan Federation should it be attacked by the Human Hive. We thank you for the proposal of exchangeing of the Ethical Calculus advance. I have brought it to the attention of our faction members and we presently debate on it. IT Mart

The counterproposal he refers to is:

quote: Posted by Googlie, in the Embassy To: Data Angels The Junta has deliberated and considered your counter proposal. The sticking point seems to be the length of any trade embargo, so here is a simplified offer: ************************************************* The Data Angels will send Doctrine: Loyalty to the Spartan Federation in 2148*, no strings attached on either side Same year, the Spartan Federation will send Doctrine: Flexibility to the Data Angels, no strings attached on either side * assuming that this is the year you would research the technology ************************************************* This will let you execute your leapfrog with the Gaian Union without any constraints set by us - and if the Data Angels or the Gaian Union should happen to beat the Hive to the Command Nexus, that's OK too (at least this offer might persuade the Gaians that we had no "hidden agenda" whereby all along all we wanted was to build the CN - they professed not to have believed us when we insisted it was just an afterthought) Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie

	19-11-2004 21:17									#180
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Wow that's great news! I hadn't expected they would already have the tech this year. Their announcement they possess the technology comes kind of a sudden.
(Which makes me a bit suspicious: Would it be possible they have stolen it from Yang, and would still be able to redirect their research to Ethical Calculus? Though since DocLoy is a 'Conquer' tech, and the Angels focus on 'Discover' (and 'Explore'?), I guess that they should get first get OptComp or so when they try to steal Hive tech.)

Anyway, great news! No need to get needlessly suspicious.