30-10-2004 02:35									#121
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Don't offer any energy credits. No need to pay for something that will hinder instead of help us.

	30-10-2004 04:42									#122
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Okay. For the record, I wasn't suggesting we buy Biogen from the Angels. Just wanted to indicate to them that tech really isn't worth much for us.

I'll post the message while leaving out the "25c" sentence.

But if they refuse a straight IndEcon<->Gene Splicing, should we or should we not accept a Biogen<->Gene Splicing deal after all? At least we get something out of Gene Splicing, and it's a probe less we can lose trying to steal technology from Zakharov.

	30-10-2004 05:05									#123
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How likely is it that we'll end up with BioGen when probing Zak?

	30-10-2004 05:13									#124
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Currently the techs that Zak has but we lack are Biogenetics (pretty useless for us) and Social Psych (prerequisite for DocLoy!). So a 50% chance we get that tech with our next techsteal operation.

If we can acquire Industrial Economics, and sell it through to Zak - who is currently researching that tech - he'll switch research to another tech we don't have, and we'll have an extra new tech to steal.

	30-10-2004 05:16									#125
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I'd play hardball, and accept only Ind Econ.

And if they won't budge (and they get GS from the Gaians in 2149, then never trade anything to the G's with less than 15 years embargo)

	31-10-2004 05:11									#126
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I guess events have been overtaken by the Morgan's cave-in on the deal terms.

So we'll get Ind econ from Morgan.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac But if they refuse a straight IndEcon<->Gene Splicing, should we or should we not accept a Biogen<->Gene Splicing deal after all? At least we get something out of Gene Splicing, and it's a probe less we can lose trying to steal technology from Zakharov.

Shall we then accept biogenetics from the Angels (better than nothing) - and trade Ind Econ to Zak for Social Psych?

That way when next we send a probe his way it's gotta be stealing something the others likely won't have

(And our research rate will take a hit for our next tech , as it's a relative formula, not an absolute one (our techs/total techs researched) so ours will increase by 3 while the total doesn't change (but everyone else's will go up too, after this round of trades)

	31-10-2004 06:04									#127
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Okay, I'll propose Biogen<->GS.

	02-11-2004 08:02									#128
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It appears that we have a deal - they will send Biogentics with the current turn, pending, for us to input Gene Splicing and approve

(I wonder why they wouldn't just send it pre-accepted ............................. ? Ah, yes - the Angels are the Pirates re-incarnated ............. )

G (still on dial-up, waiting for this damned DSL to get activated)

	02-11-2004 14:05									#129
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I don't think Biogenetics is worth swindling us for Gene Splicing... it'd risk too much. We'd never trust them again, and burning bridges at this point is just stupid. Unless they are absolutely sure that they can rely on the Gaians in any circumstances.

	02-11-2004 21:44									#130
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If they wanted to swindle us, and could rely on the gaians, the gaians could just give it to them and it wouldn't be as obvious to us. So I think the trade is safe.

	04-11-2004 06:30									#131
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Gene Splicing has been put on the diplo table, in negotiating status, pending their adding Biogenetics on their side and accepting the deal

	04-11-2004 23:01									#132
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Should we offer them Social Psych for something? Hardly anything on them we could get out of it though, save for credits. The same applies with the Morgans, pretty much.

	05-11-2004 07:34									#133
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Maybe it's time to say "We'll lay our techs on the table if you do the same and let's see where we could profitably trade or direct our research towards"

Alernatively, we could just sit smug in our current tech superiority, knowing we'll get HEC from Lal thru a probe action and something equally yummy from Zak afetr he's changed (of course we'll need to get a trannie with a couple of probes out to Lal for that to happen)

	05-11-2004 08:04									#134
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In response to a GeoModder query as to why we were silent on the GS for Biogen trade offer, I posted in the Embassy:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy Our apologies I had expected to see biogenetics on the table in "pending" mode following your earlier post, but only the Treaty had been consumated. Of course we accept the trade. In the current turn (presently with the Gaians) I have put Gene Splicing on the table (pending) for you to add Biogenetics and accept. Again, my apologies - and those of the Junta - for not confirming sooner. (And I believe that our Commanding Officer, Diplomatic Corps - Major Kassiopeia - will be contacting you soon regarding further trade opportunities as we have just come into possession of additional technologies which may be of interest to the Data Angels)

Perhaps we need to think big - a 3 -way trade that catapults us thru SFF and Silksteel to Air Power and Fusion (except that we currently have a significant tech lead and wouldn't have if we did a deep 3-way, as we'd be supplying many of the needed inermediate techs to get the leapfrog going)

Maybe we need another "Fortress Sparta" poll?

Do we get in bed with Morgan for some serious leapfrogging?

Do we try an ambitious 3-way co-ordination with the Gaians and Angels?

Do we get Doc Init, and adopt a "go-it-alone" strategy that sees us get HEC and plasma armor from a Lal probe, and other goodies from comquering Zak and setting him up as a research puppet

Do we feel strong enough to take on Yang thru probes (he gets Gatling level-5 weapons in 8 turns)

	06-11-2004 04:03									#135
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To which GeoModder has replied:

quote: Posted by GeoModder in the Embassy The Commerce Ops Center is far from sure we have anything worthwhile left to trade for what the Spartans probably can offer, but we're certainly interested in hearing out the good major.

And I have replied:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy Well, it's more along the lines of a co-ordinated future research effort between our two factions and possibly that of the Gaian Federation as well, rather than a simple sale or exchange of current technologies. A combination of successful diplomacy, and the outstanding results of our covert operations agents has left us in possession of some worthwhile technologies. But, as you know, our faction is not renowned for its self-research efforts. In order to keep pace with the burgeoning Morgan Industries, the Junta is exploring new paradigms - one of which might involve technology "leapfrogging" (where the techs we contribute would not necessarily be self-researched, but perhaps obtained through our investment in our special operations units) But I'll leave proposals and discussions of possible terms to Major Kassiopeia. I trust that this clarifies (somewhat) my earlier cryptic comments. Lt. Col Googlie

(I gave myself my old rank back, just for the heck of it, as the faction is doing so well, terraformers are terraforming, a crawler comes on line next turn, and our covert ops have been exemplary)

GGLIE

	09-11-2004 05:12									#136
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Following Major Kassiopeia's post in the Angels Embassy:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by Kassiopeia The Maniac Manifesto - Fusion Power by 2160 "The Maniac Manifesto" is a plan for a joint Venture of the Data Angels, the Gaian Union and the Spartan Federation. It is an effort to acquire the following prerequisite technologies for Fusion Power: - Superconductor - Pre-Sentient Algorithhms - Advanced Military Algorithms - Cyberethics - Intellectual Integrity - Optical Computers - Adaptive Doctrine - Polymorphic Software And then finally: - Fusion Power This endeavour will require open, direct and frank co-operation between our three factions, with extensive research leapfrogging. The Junta believes that it is possible and conceivable, given the trust and integrity we have observed both in the Gaian and Datatech factions. The reason for this rather bold and open proposal is the fact that the Morganite faction is spiralling out of control. It has constructed Planetary Transit System and is in the process of effectively doubling or even tripling its population by abandoning and rebuilding bases to gain the boon the PTS gives. We can all attest to the fact that the Morganites are a force to be reckoned with, and the Spartans are willing to give up their slight lead in the tech race to level the playing field with the Morganites. I have appointed the Spartan Chief of Administration, Lieutenant Colonel Googlie, to act as a special envoy on this matter: he will be conducting official diplomacy by my side, as we feel that one person alone can not organize this extraordinary project between three separate factions. Yours sincerely, and awaiting for your response, Major Kassiopeia, Senior Diplomatic Officer of the Junta of the Spartan Federation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta.

I elaborated further:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy To further elaborate: Fusion has 2 prerequisites: Superconductor (string #1) and Pre Sentient Algorithms (string#2) Yang will have researched Superconductor in 2154, so that technology can be "lifted" any time therafter PSA needs Advanced Military Algorithms and Cyberethics AMA needs Optical Computers (Yang has that) and Adaptive Doctrine, which in turn needs Polymorphic Software (Yang has that) and Doctrine Flexibility (Sparta has that) So for the first string, we need: 1 probe action to extract Polysoft from Yang and then one of us researches Adaptive Doctrine 1 probe action to extract Opticals, then with AdaptDoc, research Advanced Military Algorithms, then wait for string # 2 to catch up Cyberethics needs Planetary Networks (we all have that) and Intellectual Integrity, which needs Ethical Calculus (Sparta has that) and Doctrine Loyalty (can have next turn) So the second string needs: 1 of us to research Int Int, then pass the baton to another who'll change to Cyberethics Then AMA and Cyberethics get passed to the the team that will research Pre Sentient Algorithms, which, when completed, goes to the team that has received the probe fruits of Superconductor, who changes to Fusion Power Thus in 14 years we are researching 6 techs among 3 factions (and 1 or more of those techs may be extractable from the Uni or PK's through probe action or trade). With leapfrogging, it is attainable (even without assuming that the Gaian Union and Data Angels are able to maintain a faster research rate than the Spartan Federation) How about it? Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie

	09-11-2004 19:18									#137
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Seeing the Gaian hostile attitude towards us, I expect they'll refuse the Maniac Manifesto. Perhaps we could use this to picture the Gaians as the bad guys to the Angels and weaken their bond, and propose some 2-way leapfrogging between us.

Something like this perhaps in the Angel embassy?

"Unfortunately the hostile Gaians have refused our Maniac Manifesto. It appears they do not want the Angels and Spartans to thrive and prosper.
This is no reason to cease all cooperation between us two though. We can still achieve much together, with or without the Gaians. So we were wondering, are you interested in some 2-way leapfrogging to the advantage of us both, and let the Gaians regret thier belligerence?"

	09-11-2004 19:48									#138
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I like that

Maybe get a discussion on whether we have the tech they are currently researching, that might let them change to Doc Loyalty (and emphasize to them that our interest isn't in strengthening ourselves so much as denying the CN to Yang - we see ourselves as being "the Army of the Democracies" or something like that (yeah, right )

Time is of the essence, though, as no doubt the Gaians will be sending Soc Psych to them next turn, and it'd be neat to pre-empt that

	09-11-2004 21:44									#139
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Googlie, you have my consent for any deal you'll want to try out with the Angels.

	09-11-2004 21:59									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Time is of the essence, though, as no doubt the Gaians will be sending Soc Psych to them next turn, and it'd be neat to pre-empt that

Reminds me. Shall we also offer the Angels to sell DocMob? And let them suggest the price?

	09-11-2004 23:17									#141
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I've sent this to GeoModder:

quote: Sent by PM, email and posted in the Embassy Geomodder: I'm sending this 3 ways - here, by 'Poly PM and via the Embassy, as we have just under 12 hours left with the turn. The Maniac Manifesto is dead, killed by the Gaians (Can you believe that they, getting Soc Psych next year, balked at getting Soc Psych from us and changing imemdiately so that they'd get Doc Mobility next year? They wanted, in addition, either Secrets, or Ethical Calculus, or 200 ec's, etc. Why couldn't they see that it was a great deal for both of us - and prolly you as well since it would have kick-started the Maniac plan) In any event, it's dead. But that needn't prohibit the Angels and the Spartans engaing in some leapfrogging. Through judicious trading, stealing and self-researching, we have a slew of techs that the Angels lack (and you prolly have some that we lack as well) Crucial to us is Doctrine Loyalty, as in our opinion Buster has made the Hive so strong that if they get the Command Nexus it's prolly game over for a couple of the factions (we believe that we and Morgan will survive - but, for instance, Yang is currently building no fewer than 16 impact-weaponed units - if he gets the CN (he completes in 9 years), then these will have a +2 morale and be almost undefeatable) And while it would be OK for either you or the Gaians to build the CN, we believe our role in this game is to use our superior might to neutralize - and take out - the Hive at some point. Rather we had Commando units against his Disciplined than our Hardened against his Elites. We don't know what you are curremntly researching, but if we were to pass to you Social Psych and Doctrine Mobility, would you be able to chabnge (soon) to Doc Loyalty and pass that to us? Beyond that, we could foresee a fruitfal leapfrogging effort that would see us jointly getting to SFF and Air Power, Env Econ and PSA (for your free Covert Ops Centers) Your thoughts and those of your colleagues? Googlie

	10-11-2004 02:16									#142
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Got this reply by PM from GM:

quote: PM from GeoModder to Googlie Lt.-Colonel Googlie, The message is received and forwarded to the other Data Angels. We saw great benefits in the 'Maniac plan', but it's too soon to tell if we want to commit ourselves or not. Discussion is far from over at this moment, for this would mean quite a change in our own research plans.

So far so good

	10-11-2004 02:27									#143
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Yep, sounds good to me as well... let's hope they can cut the cord and tear themselves away from the Gaians.

	10-11-2004 04:13									#144
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By a process of elimination (and astute deduction), The Angels are currently researching Doc Flex.

Consider:

Earlier, the Gaians said they could deliver Doc Flex and Social Psych to us by the end of the decade

Curremtly, the Gaians are 1 turn away from Social Psych

Currently, giving them Flex - with no restrictions on further trading is one of their requested sweeteners for going the Doc Loyalty route

Only they and the Angels lack Doc Flex.

Ergo, they are in a leapfrog situation with the Angels.

So .......................................

How badly do we want Doc Loyalty?

Bad enough to give the Angels Social Psych, Doc Mobility and Doc Flex so that thjey can change to Doc Loyalty and give it to us in 2149?

I say yes - provided they don't trade Flex or Loyalty until we've completed the Command Nexus, and agree themselves not to build it

(We're in exactly the same boat as if we give the Gaians Social Psych and a free Doc Flex - they and the Angels would have all 3. This way we can get our cake and eat it too (punishing the Gaians for their rigidity)

Plus, it paves the way for a better deal with Morgan

I'll float it to the Angels in the Embassy

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 10-11-2004 at 04:38

	10-11-2004 08:08									#145
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hmm - Argenine points out a flaw in my reasoning - the Angels don't yet have Doc Mobility, so can't be researching Doc Flex

So no reason to hold up the turn any longer

	10-11-2004 08:25									#146
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Notwithstanding: GeoModder has replied:

quote: email to Googlie from GeoModder I take a liberty here, but on my behalf I ask to request a 24 hour delay in the Spartans forwarding the turn. I cannot promise anything atm tho, but it is a very generous proposal. Geo

to which I have replied:

quote: e-mail reply from Googlie to GeoModder Well, a colleague pointed out a fatal flaw in my proposal - The Data Angels do not yet possess Doc Mobility, so you cannot be researching Doc Flex (so there would be no reason to send Doc Flex in the package. Or if we do, as a gesture of friendship, we would want a longer embargo period before it found its way to the Gaian Union. It would gall us exceedingly were the net result of their intransigence be that they just had to wait a couple of years for the deal that they refused us) (It would be helpful if other leaders were as open as we are about what we are researching - deals could be put together without all the guessing that goes on - either that or we need to get our probe foils into the right oceans and forget about the AI for a decade or so)

Accordingly, I have requested of Drogue a 24 hour extension to our 2146 turn (by PM as well as in the turn reporting thread)

	10-11-2004 09:33									#147
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quote: Posted by GeoModder in the Embassy Message received, mailed back with the request to ask the mods to allow a 24 hour delay in, forwarding the turn. The options we have are quite clearly outlined, so this time frame should be sufficient to reach a decision. IT GeoModder

To which I have replied:

quote: Posted by Googlie in the Embassy Well, it's been pointed out by one of my Covert Operations Agents that as the Data Angels do not yet possess Doctrine: Mobility, you cannot be currently researching Doctrine: Flexibility. If the early delivery of Doctrine: Loyalty by the Data Angels to the Spartan Federation is still possible, then the deal can stand, with two changes to the terms (one fairly minor - yet crucial, and the other a term change to the third party trade embargo) to change their research to Doctrine:Loyalty, and send it to us the year they research it (only if this is before 2150) not to trade Doc: Loyalty or Doc: Flexibility to third parties until the later of five years following the date of such transfer of Doctrine: Loyalty from the Data Angels to the Spartan Federation, or the Spartan Federation completing the Command Nexus If these are do-able, then a deal is certainly possible To explain the changes - the Hive is currently 9 years from completing the Command Nexus, but is building a crawler, and the AI does use crawlers to hurry SP's, hence the 2150 date. The deal is obviously worthless to Sparta if we can't beat the Hive to the Command Nexus - we know that the Gaian Union and the Data Angels have been co-ordianting their joint research. Thus we expect that these techs will eventually find their way into Gaian hands. But having seen how intransigent the Gaians can be, we would be extremely annoyed if the only penalty to them for what we perceive to be their unreasonableness were to be a delay of just a year or so in aquiring the techs they tried to extort from us. Hence our desire that Sparta and the data Angels should enjoy the fruits of those technologies for a short while before the Gaians receive them (You may not know, but earlier today we recalled our Ambassador to the Gaian Union and expelled theirs from the Federation. We have closed off and sealed the Embassy under armed guard for the time being. Whether we remain Treatied with the Gaian Union is for time to decide..) Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie

	10-11-2004 15:50									#148
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Would be a great deal if it worked. Personally I'd like to have kept DocFlex longer out of Gaian hands, but that's a minor issue I guess.

Btw, does the Angels being able to agree to such a leapfrog mean they're currently researching SocPsych or DocMob? Perhaps we should ask to be sure?
Also we'd better check out with MM's tech choice simulator if the Angels will be really able to select DocLoy next. I'll check it out on my laptop and report the results later today or tomorrow.

Last edited by Maniac on 10-11-2004 at 16:06

	10-11-2004 19:56									#149
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This received by e-mail from GM:

quote: e-mail from GeoModder to Googlie Whatever deal we would have agreed upon, the mbargo wishes of the Junta would have been respected to the letter, if not to the spirit. It is simply too easy finding out which faction has ones own techs, so there is no way cheating on it. Does this means that the Spartan proposal is off the table completely? Whether or not with help of the Spartans, the Data Angels WILL acquire all the mentioned technologies in the near future. It is simply a matter of trading with the right partner. This can be either the Spartans or the Gaians, or both. In case the Junta still wishes to acquire Doc:Loy on a more 'conventional' way, it seems we are the only faction who is able to help you out then. Regarding being open about research. The Junta has mentioned some technologies it possesses, certainly not all of them. However it has never mentioned (as far as I recall) which technology it was researching. We feel that the Angels have been open and willing enough to accommodate Spartan research plans on two occasions now, despite hasty proposals and appearant quick redrawals of those proposals for some reason or the other. It looks more like the Data Angels are considered a sort of last ditch attempt to achieve the Junta's means when negotiations with the High Council fail. Regards, IT GeoModder

I have replied somewhat long-windedly (too long for this reply post - LOL) in a very conciliatory vein, but I did send a short bersion by e-mail:

quote: e-mail freply from Googlie to GeoModder Dear IT GeoModder I responded (somewhat long windedly) in our Embassy It's not that we see the Data Angels as a "haven of last resort" - more that we made prior contact with the Gaians, and as Maniac and I developed the "Manifesto" the immediate trade would have been a Gaia-Sparta trade Then we - erroneously - deduced that the Angels were researching Doc: Flex, and slapped our heads and said "Now why didn't we explore this?" (and the short answer is that there currently are Morgan supporters within the Junta, and Gaian supporters, but our contact with the Data Angels is so recent that there hasn't yet developed an "Angels' wing" within the Junta) We do have a number of technologies that will probably be of interest to the Data Angels - depending on where your priorities lie, I'm sure that we can engage in some further trading to our factions' mutual benefit Lt-Col Googlie

G.

	10-11-2004 21:12									#150
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If I got their techs right, the Angels should be able to switch to Doctrine Loyalty. If they'd have one more we don't know about, they wouldn't be able to select it though.