07-10-2004 22:14									#1
	Sparta-Morgan Relations Got spare money?

I figured while I was on a roll I might as well set up a Morgan-Sparta Virtual Embassy as well.

It's HERE and the password is:

sunburst

	09-10-2004 20:44									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We've met !!!

Over to the diplomats

Attachment: morganmeet.jpg
This has been downloaded 113 time(s).

	09-10-2004 20:47									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

May I suggest to ask what they think of a IndAut<->Gene Splicing deal with a no-trade clause of 20 years?

Eg something like "We're in the middle of negotiations with Gaia regarding a IndAut<->Gene trade, but they're only willing to accept a five year no-trade term. We were interested to hear if you would be willing to agree to a similar trade, but with a 20-year no-trade term?"

As Gaia has already met Morgan IIRC, we wouldn't be giving away any crucial info AFAIK.

	09-10-2004 20:53									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

As much as I like the idea of "playing two violins at a time", I don't think pulling any more tricks on the Gaians will be a good idea if we want to keep our relations to them warm. We'll see if we could trade Gene Splicing for something else from them. Heck, the Gaians and Morganites might be encouraged by that to work together and to agree that neither will agree to a term longer than 5 years.

	09-10-2004 20:54									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I like it. I'll e-mail the Embassy URL to them and we can discuss it there

As an aside, Morgan and the Angels have not yet been in contact:

Attachment: 2141angelscovops.jpg
This has been downloaded 108 time(s).

	09-10-2004 20:54									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Have the Morganites been informed of the meeting room?

	09-10-2004 21:00									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Done. I sent the following e-mail to jtsisyoda:

*************************************************

We have met. Our gunfoil is in the bay by Vander Eudaimonics

I took the liberty of setting up an Embassy discussion room, which can be found at:

www.aimoo.com/forum/passwordprotect...d.cfm?id=618392

The password is:

sunburst

We look forward to meeting you there

Major Googlie, Recording Officer to the Junta

*************************************************

	09-10-2004 21:05									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Will you welcome them Googlie or shall I? Just so we won't crosspost and look silly in the process.

	09-10-2004 21:10									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'll leave it to you, you're Head of Diplomacy

	09-10-2004 21:27									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

How should we relate to them, I wonder. I think I'll go pretty neutral, polite but cold, for now. I do think of them as our #1 threat, but that's because they're steamrolling everybody in While We Are Waiting.

	09-10-2004 22:10									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

As you said in the chatroom, they really have nothing we need right now (except ec's) that we know of. They know what we have, so maybe a tactic would be "You know what we've got to offer, what might you suggest is a fair trade in return?" and put the onus on them.

I suggest that if they want to treaty or pact, we extract either some regular ec income (they benefit immensely from Treaties and Pacts) or else a free tech every ten years or so from them to compensate for the income imbalance

Edit: I see that jtsisyoda has already visited the Embassy and proffers greetings and goodwill

	09-10-2004 22:21									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I suggest that if they want to treaty or pact, we extract either some regular ec income (they benefit immensely from Treaties and Pacts) or else a free tech every ten years or so from them to compensate for the income imbalance [

(laugh!)
I doubt very much that they'll give us a free tech...
Would you agree to such a proposal if you were the Morganites, Googlie?


But some kind of compensation should be extracted from them.
In my experience, I can usually get the 'trade differential' as compensation.
The treaty is handy for them, as they then know that we won't be invading, nor probing them.

Which reminds me.
If we are cagey inthe upcoming negotiations - they may very well give us a little bit more. Or else they do risk that we probe them (!).

	09-10-2004 22:29									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader (laugh!) I doubt very much that they'll give us a free tech... Would you agree to such a proposal if you were the Morganites, Googlie?

I got just that in New Eden II, from Mongoose - a tech every ten years (he could afford to, as we three other human players in that game waited far too long before tacking him, by which time he had tachyon defenses and Quantum power while we were still fusion)

quote: But some kind of compensation should be extracted from them. In my experience, I can usually get the 'trade differential' as compensation.

I often get 1/2 the differential as income (ie split 50:50 between our factions)

They, of course, will argue that it's just their faction advantage, and will the Angels share free techs they get after 3 infiltrations, or will we send Morgan Elite troops in trades. I'll leave the Diplos to counter these arguments

quote: The treaty is handy for them, as they then know that we won't be invading, nor probing them. Which reminds me. If we are cagey inthe upcoming negotiations - they may very well give us a little bit more. Or else they do risk that we probe them (!).

I bet they have probe defenders in every base by now. It's easy for Morgan with his cash (prolly armored as well)

	09-10-2004 22:56									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Have you guys seen this yet!?


Have you noticed, as we have, the evidence of Angel-Gaian cooperation? IMO this makes it imperative that the Morgans and Spartans cooperate to avoid being left behind. Although cooperative victory is off, early and effective cooperation can still be critical.

We look forward to your reply.

-Yoda, COO, Morgan Industries


Let us not lose the opportunity to take advantage of the Morganites percieved fear...

	09-10-2004 23:22									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Which further substantiates my theory that the gaians and Angels were placed as neighbours to the southeast and southwest of the Hive.

I imagine with the Angels' longstrider probe and the Gaians first captured mindworm that they met fairly early on

I wonder if they are pacted?

All the more reason for us to get those Boy Scouts into position to avoid Angels infiltration, so that their techshare doesn't just involve getting free techs from a Gaian/Sparta/whomsoever triumverate.

	10-10-2004 00:47									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

And I see that jtsisyoda has amended the message to add:

quote: Extracted from the Morgan-Sparta Virtual Embassy We'd like to offer a treaty, with an eye toward tech cooperation, and possibly other types of cooperation, as opportunities present themselves. If you're open to this treaty, we can begin discussing detailed possibilities

If Kass can put the words behind it, I suggest that I put Gene Splicing in the trade box and let's see what they come up with.

But, more importantly, do we want a Treaty with them?

	10-10-2004 01:15									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hmm - ec's are going to be at a premium for us over the next few years (rushing scouts, then upgrading rovers to impact)

I wonder if we could persuade Morgan to part with 200 ec's in exchange for Gene Splicing?

	10-10-2004 01:22									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ask for 204 e.c's.

	10-10-2004 01:32									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmmm.

A Gaian-Angel axis looks somewhat worrisome to me, especially in light of our previous plans to get comfy with the Gaians. It could be some sort of fearmongering from the Morganites, or it could be a legitimate concern - since they are asking US for any information, I doubt they have much on it. We could even as far as to try to fabricate something - but that might bite us in the arse later on, so perhaps not.

I'm going to put Gene Splicing on the table, and perhaps suggest that they buy it for energy credits. We need to get that trade rolling before the Gaians get into it. We could also sell them commlinks.

The treaty is also a very tricky issue. I will have to develop a good spin to justify an energy credit compensation for it. Of course we could just say "either you treaty with us for some extra or not treaty us for nothing, you decide". We could apply the temporary pact arrangement here as well, but perhaps with longer terms (as they are obviously not a direct threat, not being connected by land and being a faction with little militaristic ability early on - at least the Gaians have their worms).

	10-10-2004 01:49									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

How about the cred sum for GS? I'm thinking 230. If we say 200, they'll still want to negotiate it down, so I'd rather make sure we end up in 200 anyway.

	10-10-2004 01:54									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Reason being I asked for a little more - and I would not go below that sum, is cause presently we require 155 labs for a breakthrough. If we go on the very simple formula of 1 lab is equivilant to 1 enrgy credit (which it really isn't), and since our 'labs required to breakthrough rate' will increase with the acceptance of the Gaian trade, we're going to need more.

Either that or we just probe off of people (which would be the cheapest in materials/effort, even if we lost the probe. I didn't say "time" cause you have to take into account travel to target.).

	10-10-2004 01:55									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'll just put 250, and a no-trade clause of 20 years. They can negotiate if they don't like it

	10-10-2004 01:59									#23
	Increase the size of your Attachments

(LAUGH!)

Sure...

	10-10-2004 02:17									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Let's look at waht we think each other desperately wants:

Morgan wants to get to EnvEcon asap, to get energy restrictions lifted, thus needs Gene Splicing, Ecological Engineering and then Environmental Engineering

We want to get to Int Int for the CDF and to Doc Init for the MCC. When we get Ind Auto our next choice after we get Ecol Eng will be either Doc Init or Environmental economics. We need Social psych, Ethhical calculus (which Zak will sell us for 100 ec's - or we can probe it for nothing) and then Intellectual Integrity.

It'd be great next choice to go for Doc Init, and then build crawlers for eventual upgrades and conversions to the SP. But we then need to get Env Econ from Morgan when he researches it

bear with me .....

I don't see Morgan yet as having Ethical Calculus, as they're still running Frontier and not Democratic. How about we split the cost between us of buying it from Zak for 100 ec's, then passing it on to Morgan (I bet they're researching that right now)

We don't have Doc Loyalty (probe it from Yang - can someone check to see if he'd still be willing to sell it to us now that he's started the Command nexus?) or ask Morgan to get it/reserach it in return for which we'll trade him ecol eng when we get it.

Thus we'd have all the prereqs for either Doc Init and the MCC or for Int Int and the CDF, while Morgan will have the prereqs for EnvEcon

That'd need a degree of openess and trust, maybe even a Pact, but it would at the very minimum need them to give us the same information that we inadvertently gave them, namely the techs they have that we don't

Comments?

	10-10-2004 02:21									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

If we are to work together with them to a heightened degree, it would certainly be a good opportunity to test the waters, as to how it would work out. I like the idea, and I could propose it - at least initially, by suggesting that we share the costs of the tech purchase. It would be quite handy to just add their share to the selling price of Gene Splicing, too.

	10-10-2004 02:31									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Googlie bear with me ..... Comments?

No prob. this is how I work on deals too...



Any way.

- I can't type fast enough to ammend anything here (cause I have to accompiny those with an explainations).

- I've posted what the AI will do in the pre 2141 thread. But to answer here; no Yang won't deal in anything unless we pact with him against the Gaians. I can't check anything out in that department unless we actually go ahead and do that - which is not in our interests.


Edit: See how much I was rushing? Look at how bad my spelling is in this post!

	10-10-2004 02:32									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're proposing.
Is this it or did I misunderstand you?

We both pay 50 credits to buy EthCalc from Zakharov and both get EthCalc.
We give Morgan Gene Splicing and Ecological Engineering.
They give us Doctrina: Loyalty and Environmental Economics.

Is that it? I'd like such a cooperation to get DocLoy and EnvEcon.

But one thing I don't understand, instead of equally sharing the cost of buying EthCalc, why don't we sell EthCalc from Zak at a cost of 100c, but then sell it further to Morgan for a cost of eg 150c? That way we still both get the tech, but we gain 50c instead of losing 50.

	10-10-2004 02:43									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Maniac I'm afraid I don't really understand what you're proposing. Is this it or did I misunderstand you? We both pay 50 credits to buy EthCalc from Zakharov and both get EthCalc. We give Morgan Gene Splicing and Ecological Engineering. They give us Doctrina: Loyalty and Environmental Economics. Is that it? I'd like such a cooperation to get DocLoy and EnvEcon.

With the 200 or 250 ec's for GS, that's it. (Plus, we get their commitment not to build the CDF or the MCC)

quote: But one thing I don't understand, instead of equally sharing the cost of buying EthCalc, why don't we sell EthCalc from Zak at a cost of 100c, but then sell it further to Morgan for a cost of eg 150c? That way we still both get the tech, but we gain 50c instead of losing 50.

That's an even better idea - and especially if it's the random tech that we probe off Zak, our profit would be 150 ec's!! (of course, we're as likely to ge Progenitor Psych or something equally useless)

But we do need to watch our pennies - can someone add up the rush costs contained in my suggestions (I've been wrong too many times before), 'cos we need to have at least 25 in the kitty at end of turn to pay the Gaians when they open the 2142 year

	10-10-2004 02:49									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I come to a cost of 53 leaving us 94 in reserve.

	10-10-2004 05:36									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It looks like we're leaning towards sending on the turn without a Treaty or Trade on the table for Morgan

Perhaps we should put gene Splicing on the table, so that if they do bite at our offer price they can execute this year?

(Alternatively, as we follow them in turn order, they can put the cash on the table pre-accepted in 2142 and when we get the cash we'll deliver the tech

It's all the same to them as the earliest they can get a tech is 2143 unless we sent GS pre-accepted this turn, and we haven't heard diddely squat from them in the Embassy whether the price is right