12-10-2004 03:01									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah, it appears that the Morganites have not met the Gaians yet, which of course puts everything on its head as far as diplomacy is concerned. The Morganites are now pristine territory where we can pull of any nefarious scheme we desire! Like brokering them techs we "acquire" from other sources or buying them for cheap and selling them for a tidy profit.

Why they have decided that the Angels and Gaians are in cahoots, is beyond me.

	12-10-2004 03:44									#62
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader I was never under the impression that the Morganites and Gaians had met. And, it was clear to me that we are the first to have met them. I was sure the rest of you saw things the same way. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I for one thought that they had met (as in the screen that was inadvertently left open, the Gaians commlink was missing)

That's why I was surmising that the Gaians were stalling on the Angels commlink sale - to try and sell it to Morgan before we could

That's why I was wondering if the Gaians had gotten Ind Auto from Morgan

That's why we wanted an onward-trading embargo on GS - to stop Gaia immediately saelling to Morgan
and so on

	12-10-2004 07:58									#63
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So (elsewhere) Maniac makes a good point:

We should withold giving Mroran's commlink to the Gaians and vice versa so long as possible, to maximize our "honest broker" opportunities.

And if the Gaians do put the Angels' commlink on the table for 25 ec's, we should snap it up

We shouldn't then (yet) sell the Angels commlink to Morgan

We should sell GS to Morgan and to the Angels

We should sell Flex to the Gaians and the Angels

We should probe-rape the University and sell whatever we can to whomsoever

We might have, say, ten years of a trading monopoly, so let's maximize our opportunities

(and if we do agree to a Morgan "observer" on the SCC Hunter, let's make sure it goes nowhere near gaian territory)

	12-10-2004 11:36									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia What meeting room am I reading? Either I've gotten a severe case of dyslexia, have misunderstood something, or failed to notice something, the Morganites are proposing that we get half of the extra trade, as IIRC was the intention, and they just want the maps. I don't see them offering *anything* in return for the maps. Nor am I reading anywhere that they're specifically touting it as a factional advantage per se. Of course,

On the contrary, I think they are linking the 2, and that we get 1/2 the surplus income in exchange for us giving them explaration data.

Here, again is what they posted in the Embassy (my bold italics):

quote: Posted by the Morganites in the Embassy Please understand that we do not get that additional commerce for free. Because of the Free Market, which helps make that income, we have problems with drones and exploring the world Please consider: 1. In recognition of the special commerce advantage, Sparta gets one half of the special Morgan commerce bonus. For example: If in year 2130 Morgan gets 16 in commerce with Sparta and Sparta gets 10 in commerce with Morgan, then in year 2131 Morgan sends 3 ECs to Sparta so that both Morgan and Sparta get the same amount of commerce income from each other. 2. In recognition of the Spartan exploration advantage, Morgan would like to place an observer on the naval craft that met us. For example: We would like screenshots of the naval craft that is now off our coast. As your foil moves we would like to see what it finds. At the end of each turn Sparta would post a screenshot of what the foil sees. If that particular craft ceased to explore, then screenshots from a suitable replacement would be provided.

So I think that they are inextricably linked - and he does make a valid point. (Granted, though, that they could explore with transports or with probefoils, although both are a bit defenseless against IoD's until they get trance)

Our counter, of course, (in addition to the above, and as already said elsewhere) is that without the Treaty there is no additional commerce income for them, so if they want exploration data as well, then perhaps the profit-sharing split should be 60:40 in our favor

(But you have to admire their brashness. It's a great request - the exploration data - 'cos it really is hard to counter. They could drop Free Market then wouldn't have the drone problems when their military ships leave port, but there would be no "profits" to share with us)

The turn will imminently zip thru the Angels and be in Morgan hands, so we need to get the dialogue going with them on this and all the other isseus that are on the table

G.

	12-10-2004 22:43									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Googlie And if the Gaians do put the Angels' commlink on the table for 25 ec's, we should snap it up

Illuminatus has posted in our Gaian Embassy that the Angels' commlink is indeed on offer for us in the 2142 turn (whether pre-accepted for 25 ec's or not, he didn't say)

Based on prior discussions, I will accept the offer for 25 ec's when I open the turn, and if asking more, I will come to the junta for instructions

	12-10-2004 22:52									#66
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Another thing to keep in mind; If they run just WEALTH, they get +1 energy per square - which is the real biggie concerning energy output. By running FREE MARKET, they gain, in addition to the above, +1 COMMERCE. The second is not really that important unless you can take advantage of it by treaties or pacts. Hence, I don't buy their "reason". I personally just took it as a ploy on their part to try and wrangle something extra. Might work on people with less experience playing Morgan, but anybody who knows otherwise, won't be fooled...

EDIT:

Googlie beat me in posting (laugh). Look at the post above last for reference to what I'm saying here.

	12-10-2004 23:05									#67
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

But it's by running Free Market that causes them to be explorationally-challenged by the drones that appear when units are away from their base.

So their position is, if we want to share in the commerce they get from their running FM, then we should contribute something (information) to offset the penalties they get from running FM

The "debater" in me says they have a valid argument (and quite innovative too - it'd be worth it just to have that agreement go down in SMAC/X annals)

I'm in favour, with the restriction that we decide where Hunter goes, and that if it gets destroyed, or otherwise ceases to explore (eg heals from damage, or enters our port) there's no automatic transfer to another vessel (but of course we would then forfeit our right to the profit sharing)

G.

	12-10-2004 23:30									#68
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm in agreement with the proposed deal.
(Didn't I say so already...?)

*scrolling back through some posts...*

(No, looks like I didn't give an opinion on this yet.)

With getting 1/2 of the commerce difference in energy credits (one turn later), that's more than I would have expected.
If we explore the Morganite coastline, they won't be getting that much valuable data.


I've worked out wierd deals with people in the past:
- Disclosure of what I recieved from unity pod pops.
- Diplomatic isolation of individual factions.
- Sending my formers in their territory and doing terraforming.
- Disbanding all my probes (!!!).
- Staying in FREE MARKET for the rest of the game.

Lot's of wierd stuff. That's what makes multi-playing so interesting.

	13-10-2004 02:09									#69
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm fine with the exploration proposal, but I will emphasise to them that *we* will tell the ship where it will go.

	13-10-2004 03:21									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'm thinking, if the Hunter and the Pegasus do link up for some pod popping it'll really gall them if we give a screenie of the pod, then say "we popped it and got 200 ec's etc etc" (even if we didn't)

(And as an aside, if we pop a pod and get a Hunter clone, will that mean that the Morgan Observer gets cloned too?)



And I see that the turn is now with Morgan - can we expect to see the airwaves heating up now with commlink activity?

	13-10-2004 03:30									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hope so! I'm composing a message now.

	13-10-2004 03:36									#72
	Suffering from ads?

They haven't even downloaded their turn yet

	13-10-2004 03:41									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Odd to see such procrastination from the largest faction in the game. Peculiar.

	13-10-2004 04:27									#74
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Gaians are larger (27 members. mindboil being their latest.)

	13-10-2004 06:04									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

I can post this to the Embassy site (as an indication of the type of screenies they will periodically receive as the SCC Hunter circumnavigates Chiron (yeah, right). It's what lies just outside thier view from their coastal base

Note that cf the real map I have moved the "Buster Ocean" nametag closer to Morgan - htey will doubtless think that we are on their doorstep (as to name a landmark on the real map the feature must be closer to us than any other faction). Just messin' with their minds

Attachment: morganscreenie.jpg
This has been downloaded 22 time(s).

	13-10-2004 06:22									#76
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ah, love what you did with the landmark tag. Go ahead and post it. If they start to whinge about it should it be revealed, we can just spin it by saying that it is the Buster Ocean regardless, the tag was placed there afterwards just to give you the name of the place.

	13-10-2004 07:19									#77
	Full PM-box? Change here!

My thoughts exactly - it's on its way in the Embassy bag

Edit - now posted there

Last edited by Googlie on 13-10-2004 at 07:35

	13-10-2004 15:56									#78
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm a bit confused.
Is it the intention to continue posting SCC Hunter screenies for free (or in the Morganite logic, as repayment for the commerce)? Or is that screenie just a "teaser" to start negotiations on what they are willing to pay in exchange for exploration data?

	13-10-2004 17:01									#79
	Got spare money?

quote: Is it the intention to continue posting SCC Hunter screenies for free (or in the Morganite logic, as repayment for the commerce)?

Yes. However, we can keep the Hunter where we want to, so we can just have it stroll around the Morganite coast, finding stuff they would have found anyway sooner or later. It's also a great opportunity to feed them disinformation, as Googlie demonstrated above.

	13-10-2004 17:10									#80
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Is it the intention to continue posting SCC Hunter screenies for free (or in the Morganite logic, as repayment for the commerce)? Or is that screenie just a "teaser" to start negotiations on what they are willing to pay in exchange for exploration data?

Spoken like a true champion of the Gaian camp !! ( )

From my perspective, I was proposing to continue posting SCC Hunter screenies for free as repayment for the commerce profit sharing

Scenario # 1, No Treaty or Pact:

situation as is right now. No income to either faction, Sparta gets and keeps our own Hunter exploration data, Morgan flies 'blind" as regards mapping, or else expensively - or slowly - with transports or probefoils, or by running several drone-controlling doctors at a coastal base

Scenario # 2, Treaty or Pact with profit and exploration data sharing:

With eight or nine bases each, generates 8 to 12 ec's extra per turn (say 10) of which each faction shares 5, in exchange for which we provide a screenie each turn of the 2 tiles either side and ahead of the Hunter as it explores

We could ask for more (eg, in many PBEMS the 2 parties share that excess without any other considerations, so this might just be a Morgan negotiating ploy) such as a 60:40 or 2/3rds split in our favour

Or we could ask for a 50:50 split on revenue,as a stand-alone (saying that in our experience this is fairly common in PBEMs involving Morgan), plus a free tech every ten years (or maybe a 50 ec lump sum) for the information

Let's face it, we don't need a Treaty, although one of the Spartan's biggest drawbacks as a faction is that it is difficult to generate ec's which to us are perhaps more important than to others (we can't run Wealth, and we tend to rush builds more often to compensate for our -1 Industry)

So maybe the Gaian camp in the Junta is pressuring for a deal with Morgan more favourable to Sparta, even to the extent that if Morgan finds the terms more onerous than they can bear, so be it?? We can walk away from a Treaty

Good political intrigue, eh?

G.

	13-10-2004 17:19									#81
	Inflate your Upload Space

However, if we are to use Morgan as an "energy generator" as I've mentioned in the foreign policy strat thread, a treaty now would be a good time to set a favourable precedent to that.

	13-10-2004 18:22									#82
	Support Apolyton

I edited the post in the Embassy (actually deleted, then reposted it - one of the priveleges of being a Moderator) to make my screenie a teaser gift to spur negotiations rather than the first in a series of information exchanges

	13-10-2004 18:29									#83
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Thanks.
I wouldn't really mind if the Morganites got that exploration information, but we can always give it a try to see if we can get better treaty terms.

	13-10-2004 20:47									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

DP

	13-10-2004 20:48									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We'd need to propose such better treaty terms, though. You want a 60:40 share of the energy credits, for instance?

Oh, and do we really go back to altering what I already did say was an acceptance of their terms? Didn't we nearly have this same mess with the Gaians?

	13-10-2004 21:33									#86
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Oh, and do we really go back to altering what I already did say was an acceptance of their terms? Didn't we nearly have this same mess with the Gaians?

Well... We agreed to place an observer on the Hunter, according to the statement by Kass on the embassy forums

quote: As to what comes to the Treaty of Friendship, we accept the terms you have offered. The Federation will receive half of the income bonus provided by trade, we will leave the details and number-chruncing up to our respective information and economy officers to sort out. Payments can be made on once per year basis. And thus, we agree to let a Morganite observer team be placed onboard SCC Hunter, the naval craft now in anchor outside your base. Our intelligence department will provide you with geographical imagery of its progress and discoveries in exchange for your credit payments.

I really don't see how we can back away from that I think we might have been able to negotiate a more worthwile deal, but regardless of that, I don't think we can back away from it.

The Morgan businessmen will cry bloody murder at such a breach of contract

	13-10-2004 22:26									#87
	Suffering from ads?

I'm not concerned. As things seem to stand, considering that the Gaians and Angels are cooperating, Morgan needs us more than we need them. If the Morganites are shrewd enough, they should be realizing this as well...

	13-10-2004 22:59									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We can always "hold the treaty hostage" to them. I don't see the intel we'll provide them from a ship we control that crucial. IMHO they aren't going to gain much from it. Besides, if this'll make them warmer towards us, all the better. Make them feel like they'll do great business with us (the reality need not correlate with this feeling).

	14-10-2004 04:05									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And it does give the Morganite wing of the Junta its small victory ..........

(talking of which ............)

the silence from the Morgan team is deafening

(They've had the turn for over 24 hours now, 3 players have downloaded it, and nary a peep from them to us)

Last edited by Googlie on 14-10-2004 at 04:27

	14-10-2004 04:52									#90
	Inflate your Upload Space

I wonder if I should PM Mead to shake them up a bit, or if I should just let it run its due course... I could post on Aimoo too, and air our concerns for their apparent disinterest in interfactional affairs. A concern, not an admonishment or an indignation.