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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:21
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Got a PM from Mead:
quote:
Text of a PM from Mead to Googlie
Resolution of Current Difficulties
Happy New Year Googlie,
I just got back in town and see a lot has happend since I left.
It's still a little sketchy (I can't get into the embassy so I'm working only of what I can read in the forums) but it looks like the following happened.
Our probe was exploring in the northern sea.
Sparta declared a MODO (I think) doctraine claiming to extend its terrtitorial seas eight squares out into the international seas.
Our probe discovered the Hunter in international waters (but within the area Sparta attempted to claim).
I think Sparta stated it would destroy any ships
within the claimed area.
Even though the probe action cost a lot of money, it was clear to the crew of the probefoil that it would be killed the next turn if it did not probe the Hunter. In self defense the probe foil probed the Hunter.
Please let me know if I have missed anything.
Mead
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and my reply:
quote:
e-mail reply to Mead by Googlie
And a Happy New year to you, too, Mead:
A somewhat ingenuous defense, if I may say so.
My comments annotated to your message:
It's still a little sketchy (I can't get into the embassy)
The Embassy was destroyed by a crazed horde of Spartan Helots who lost loved ones on board the Hunter (I took it off-line, but it made a great fiction story piece - I'm shortly going to post it in the general forum where jtsisyoda posted about Ambassador Mead vacating the Embassy)
so I'm working only of what I can read in the forums) but it looks like the following happened.
Our probe was exploring in the northern sea.
Sparta declared a MODO (I think) doctraine claiming to extend its terrtitorial seas eight squares out into the international seas.
8 squares from our nearest bases
Our probe discovered the Hunter in international waters (but within the area Sparta attempted to claim).
The Hunter was exactly 8 tiles form our nearest base - on patrol
I think Sparta stated it would destroy any ships within the claimed area.
Indeed we did
Even though the probe action cost a lot of money, it was clear to the crew of the probefoil that it would be killed the next turn if it did not probe the Hunter. In self defense the probe foil probed the Hunter.
1 tile north and 1 northeast would have been at our limit (and on the diagonal northeast from that) - 2 tiles north or northwest would have been outside our claimed waters. There were clear alternatives to mind-controlling the vessel
Please let me know if I have missed anything.
Mead
Ambassador Lieutenant-Colonel Kassiopeia has been charged with ongoing discussions with the Corporation. The replacement costs for the SCC Hunter have been set at 120 energy credits (to rush build a replacement from scratch)
Of course, returning the Hunter to a Spartan port, and ceding control back to Sparta, would ameliorate these costs significantly. But I will leave these negotiations to the Lt Colonel.
For our part, we saw the action of the Corporation as being somewhat of an opportunistic nature, occupied as we were with the liberation of North Arcadia. You saw the ship, you could "poke us in the eye" by acquiring it in retribution for our killing of your defense attorney and at the same time suspend due payments for traded technologies, while we were engaged elsewhere.
Relations are therefore at a low point, understandably. I don't know what Lt-Col Kassiopeia can salvage, but just remember - and pass it on to your colleagues - Sparta has a long memory.
Colonel Googlie |
(This message has also has been posted in the Morgan War thread)
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:21
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I was simply just too busy to do anything. As I mentioned in one of our turnchats, I managed to get a bit ill earlier this week. (Even now I am a bit too tired to be doing this, but what the hey.) Here, anyway, is what I've got so far written:
quote:
To my esteemed colleagues in the Datatech diplomatic corps.
The passing Mission Year has been tumultous as far as our relationship with Morgan Industries is concerned. However, even though they did engage in an act of aggression against us, we are currently engaged in peace talks. This is taking place in the belief that the Morganite vendetta against us does not escalate any further; therefore the Federation wishes to assure you that it expects no military aid whatsoever from the Angels.
In a similar vein, the Junta hopes that you will uphold our beneficial and lucrative trade relations by staying out of this conflict altogether. It is, thankfully, none of your concern. It's just a single foil it's all about, after all. I am certain that we possess technology that is of interest to you and which we can provide at an amicable price.
I would also like to bring to your attention the fact that sunspots are a possible danger to communications and that we would like to ask you to consider that we would be able to use a probe team to acquire Intellectual Integrity from you once you have researched it, if sunspots prohibit a transfer of the tech through normal channels.
Due to sunspots we are also hoping that you will quickly consider what you would be willing to pay us for Ecological Engineering. We are also considering a following leapfrog scheme that would benefit us both and the Gaians. This is assuming the Gaians are researching EcolEng.
1. Sparta gives Gaians EcolEng.
2. Gaia switches research to IntInt, provided they could get IntInt several years earlier than the Angels.
3. Gaia gives us - and the Angels - IntInt when it's researched. What Gaia gets in return from the Angels, is up to them.
4. The Angels switch research to Cyberethics (should that be possible), and give it to us when researched. |
And:
quote:
Lord Chaos Theory,
I have something to discuss with you.
The passing turn has been stormy as far as our relationship with Morgan Industries is concerned. However, even though they did engage in an act of aggression against us, we are currently negotiating a peace treaty with them. This is taking place in the belief that the Morganite vendetta against us does not escalate any further; therefore the Federation wishes to assure you that it expects no military aid whatsoever from the Gaians.
In a similar vein, the Junta hopes that you will uphold our beneficial and lucrative trade relations by staying out of this conflict altogether. It is, thankfully, none of your concern. One foil can be easily paid back with the energy hoard the Morganites are sitting on.
Due to sunspots we are also hoping that you will quickly consider what you would be willing to pay us for Ecological Engineering. We are also considering a following leapfrog scheme that would benefit us both and the Angels. This is assuming you, the Gaians, are researching EcolEng.
1. Sparta gives Gaians EcolEng.
2. Gaia switches research to IntInt, provided they could get IntInt several years earlier than the Angels.
3. Gaia gives us - and the Angels - IntInt when it's researched. What Gaia gets in return from the Angels, is up to them.
4. The Angels switch research to Cyberethics (should that be possible), and give it to us when researched. |
This was a bit difficult and I want you to check it out with a tight comb, because the whole tech trade scheme is somehow confusing to me. I just can't wrap my head around it, so I just copypasted what Maniac wrote.
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:21
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Good. I only needed a review from another pair of eyes, since the messages are supposed to contain the things we've already had consensus upon - therefore I'm going ahead with them.
I also sent this to Mead last night (or, rather, this is the meat of the message). Observe the lack of any suggestions as to what would an appropriate reparation. 
quote:
Your gall astounds me. You have subverted a perfectly fine sea-going vessel worth a substantial amount of energy credits, and now you suggest that we pay you 2 ec per turn for the privilege of receiving information from a ship that was ours in the first place?
While the Junta's ear is open to offers of recompensation for the lost vessel, this proposition is absurd. I can only hope for the sake of our peaceful coexistence that this is a Morganite negotiation tactic, so that a ridiculous proposition will seem moderate in comparison.
I also fail to see how self-defence was an issue - the Hunter was on a mission of exploration and our factions were not at war. As you later state in your own message, "I can see it being in effect against large invasion fleets, but not for small ships engaged in exploration or trade." Your own invocation of the Modo Doctrine therefore seems odd at best and hypocritical at worst.
quote:
For now, let's not have any unfriendly actions against Spartan or Morgan forces and just get back to cooperative, profitable, peace. |
This is acceptable, as long as our negotiations vis-a-vis proper compensation for the Hunter are proceeding. |
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:21
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Hmm, we now run the risk of course that they'll think an invasion is imminent, and start turning to military production. This we must avoid for another turn or three for the PTS pro-active defense operation aka raid to succeed.
So how about starting some talks, without making official promises of course that could make us look like an agreement-breaker?
Eg Googlie could bring the embassy back online and someone could post a message a bit like this?
Welcome back to the renovated embassy, Gentlemen of the Corporation. During your short absence we have redecorated and repainted a little and wired all rooms with bugs. We hope you like your new surroundings.
Now let's get to business. It seems a comment, made by Major Snoddasmannen after drinking too many fungal gins, has been misinterpreted. Namely Colonel Googlie received a Planetnet Message from Mr. Argenine indicating that Paramiria would have been captured by Federation forces. We can assure this is not the case. Instead Snoddasmannen's comment referred to the mass casualties the base in question suffered in slaying down the pacifist protests following the Hunter hostile takeover. Make no mistake though. If negotiations for compensation of your crime do not reach a satisfactory conclusion, we reserve ourselves the right to take action against Corporate assets.
For as Mr. Argenine indicates, Morgan didn't even try to open negotiations regarding the Hunter position or the Modo Doctrine: you simply immediately took hostile action. This while we were most willing to negotiate with the Corporation regarding a division of the ocean seperating our continents, and a reduction of the extent of the Modo Doctrine, should you have indicated a desire for another arrangement. The doctrine of no ships within a full eight squares of our bases is more meant against Gaian and Angel probes coming from the south in the future.
Therefore we believe we have the right to a compensation on the Hunter issue.
There is however another issue at stake. The Corporation not only took over control of the Hunter. You unilaterally threw ALL treaties, contracts and agreements out of the window, and ceased payments for our Ethical Calculus trade of a while ago. And this for the second time already. The previous time the Junta accedes it was partly justified. In fact we were planning to compensate you on our own initiative for the loss of the Defense Attorney you suffered during our infiltration mission.
But this time your action cannot be else interpreted than as an unprovoked hostile act. In this you have showed yourselves as an unreliable partner to make longterm deals with. That's why, before full peace negotiations start and a compensation for the Hunter incident is sought, the Junta would like to receive the outstanding payments for our tech trades, in one lump sum. It would be a sign of your credibility and show your commitment to a true peace process.
With the greeting of the Junta,
Someone
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Snoddasmannen
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Alright, cool. Let's look at one of the issues here.
quote:
Resolving the ownership change of the Hunter.
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If we want to get slightly under-handed, and please let me know if this should be considered against the rules somehow, remember what argenine said in his PM.
quote:
It is unfortunate that the corporation did not engage in the buying and selling of units as originally hoped for.
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This is likely to be their objective. Frankly, I don't understand how they could possibly think that to be a plausible strategy. That's like rich kids stealing baseball bats from broke soccer hooligans after a lost game, and then selling them back for profit. I can only assume that Sparta has a "no-hostage" policy and does not negotiate with kindappers.
They will understand of course, that we won't accept the "sharing of screenies", and will probably soon offer us an opportunity to buy it back, or hope that we think of it ourselves. Well I don't think we will  Remember that they are paying upkeep for that ship, and they currently have no use for it. They probably need to keep it around us to keep safe from a Spartan invasion, but would rather just sell it to us with a pact, knowing that they are safe. So prolonging negotiations is expensive for them.
Anyway, I think that right there is their mind-set. IMO, Kassi should continue to stall, and continue to argue issues other than the direct transfer of the Hunter. Stay with side-issues and force them to bring up their proposal directly, winning us time.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Snoddasmannen
Anyway, I think that right there is their mind-set. IMO, Kassi should continue to stall, and continue to argue issues other than the direct transfer of the Hunter. Stay with side-issues and force them to bring up their proposal directly, winning us time. |
quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
One thing Morgan didn't, was answering the question about a lump sum payment. If they tried to get a turn to get the needed cash (or a part of it), that's fine. But I'm afraid they think we're dumb enough to go for a simple renewal of treaties. To keep looking like we're going for peace, we should keep on this subject, reminding them again, that a compensation is necesary. |
The Morganites indeed seem to think they can talk themselves out of paying compensations, and thus avoid some issues we've adressed. But who cares: that's in our advantage. It makes it easier to stall negotiations without making it look like we're stalling negotiations.
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02-01-2005 23:05
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