16-12-2004 07:11									#361
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I posted it in the Commerce section as well, then thought that maybe they were thinking that this was an in-game diplomacy roleplay, so I deleted both versions of the post from the Embassy and sent it as a PM to jtsisyoda instead.

	17-12-2004 06:43									#362
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And a not-quite-a-trade-but-more-of-a-thinking-aloud suggestion from jtsisyoda

quote: Posted in the Embassy by jtsisyoda We acquired Soc Psych this turn and switched to Eco Eng. Again, just thinking out loud-- not official yet-- maybe we could do Eco Eng, Env Econ, and HEC for SFF and I.I.??

We're now going to get Int Int from the Angels, and in 6 turns we can pilfer (or tradefor) SFF from Lal, so why would we even consider Morgan's offer?

Methinks oodles of cash, perhaps, may induce us to part with EE, EE2 and HEC

	17-12-2004 11:14									#363
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And they have replied to Maniac's post re probe action guarantees:

quote: Posted in the Embassy bu jtsisyoda ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- How will we be given assurances that future unfriendly acts will not be conducted against the Federation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have the same assurances we do. That is, only the honor of the allied faction. You asked a lot of other questions because there's a boat in the water that might infiltrate. Wouldn't the questions be more appropriate directed at you, who actually infiltrated? Our 'Gator Boat in the northern waters is merely a fast, support-free explorer. Chief Litigator Moneypenny would like to extend an invitation for a Spartan observer. Besides, surely you already have strong probe defenses at this stage, and we couldn't hope to infiltrate with one lonely boat?

	17-12-2004 13:41									#364
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Since we have the deal with the Angels now, milk Morgan for all you can.

The situation of the Gator boat is simple, IMO. If we can sink it, we should. Declaring the Modo Doctrine at the same time. I just love that name.


Anyone interested why it fits well, check Modo <-> Shakespeare cross-reference...

	18-12-2004 02:34									#365
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Arginine has posted a "clarification" to jtsisyoda's post quoted a couple earlier above:

quote: Posted by Argenine in the Embassy I would like to repeat my previous statement that I suspect the price for us researching I.I. would be considered a rip-off by Spartan standards. My unsupported position is that I would see a long term alliance (not necesarily as Pact-mates) as potentially profitable (depending on the details). A long term alliance ~40 years would result in the Federation getting many of the fruits of Morgan researchers. Unfortunately, the profitability of such an alliance is dependent on internal corporate policies, so the corporation would have to accept the policies needed for profitability in addition to agreeing to work with the Federation. I would expect the same to hold true for the Federation.

My thoughts are to post a reply alomg the lines of:

quote: Suggested reply by Googlie (or Kassiopeia, if back in harness) Events are moving a little faster than our Morgan-Sparta diplomacy seems to be able to keep up with. The Federation will shortly be acquiring the technologies of Intellectual Integrity and Synthetic Fossil Fuels without involving Morgan researchers in their development. We are open to any other suggestions that the Corporation may have regarding future technology trades.

(of course, Int Int will come via the Angels deal, and SFF via either a PK trade of a Longstrider visit)

That ought to gall Morgan - researching three of four techs that they know we have!! (with nothing really to offer us except cash)

	18-12-2004 03:15									#366
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Cash we can use. I think we should seriously consider selling them one tech for energy, and for energy only. I mean a lot of it. Then do all remaining upgrades... and go after Morgan.

	18-12-2004 05:18									#367
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Hmm, I wonder how Morgan got SocPsych. They don't have contact with the Angels or Gaians, and on first sight Zak or Lal haven't received extra techs or cash.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Cash we can use. I think we should seriously consider selling them one tech for energy, and for energy only. I mean a lot of it. Then do all remaining upgrades... and go after Morgan.

Use a faction's own money against them is always a good strategy.

	18-12-2004 05:22									#368
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Yes, I thought you'd like it.

We could time it with their war with Yang. Even if we don't get to pact with him, he's clearly more of a threat to Morgan, than to us. This means, he could create a serious distraction...

	18-12-2004 06:39									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Hmm, I wonder how Morgan got SocPsych. They don't have contact with the Angels or Gaians, and on first sight Zak or Lal haven't received extra techs or cash.

Perhaps they popped a nautical pod with one of their 'Gators and got a tech

They didn't pop either of their two landbased pods this turn (Two of their bases have unpopped pods in their radii - Money Valley and Paramiria)

And as I haven't seen Kass for a couple of days, shall I go ahead and post that reply to Arginine's comments?

	18-12-2004 06:54									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie And as I haven't seen Kass for a couple of days, shall I go ahead and post that reply to Arginine's comments?

Perhaps wait a short while until we've cleared up the IntInt matter with the Angels?

	18-12-2004 20:50									#371
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 The situation of the Gator boat is simple, IMO. If we can sink it, we should. Declaring the Modo Doctrine at the same time. I just love that name.

Perhaps you, as writer of the Modo Doctrine, could post a reply to jtsisyoda regarding the Gator Boat? Something like this, edited to sound more like you, or something you yourself want to write?

"You are of course correct your disciplined Gator Boats can do little against our commando probe defences. However it is Spartan doctrine to deal with any possible security threat as early as possible.

But the nature of your Gator Boats is of no significance. We treat the ocean your Gator Boat is currently sailing as our territorial waters, and we don't allow ANY ship on our territory without permission. Therefore we would like to request you to withdraw and explore elsewhere, in neutral waters."

	18-12-2004 21:28									#372
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I like the idea. I tried to mix it up a bit. If we're doing the Modo Doctrine, it shouldn't sound so nice.

"You are of course correct your disciplined Gator Boats can do little against our commando probe defences. However it is Spartan doctrine to deal with any possible security threat before it becomes a real one.

The nature of your Gator Boats is of no significance. We treat the ocean your Gator Boat is currently sailing as our territorial waters, and we don't allow ANY ship on our territory without permission. You didn't receive clearance for this mission, therefore we ask you to remove the ship NOW. You are welcome to explore elsewhere, in neutral waters."

Added parts are marked like this. The first part is, of course, a reminder of the probe team they lost to our probe.

Thoughts? I'll post it, when it gets an "ok" here. (Just tell me where exactly, so I don't make a mess...)

	19-12-2004 01:21									#373
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For what it's worth, it looks great to me

	19-12-2004 04:38									#374
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Posted it.

Can someone check, if I have my military rank right, over at the embassy? Just in case.

	19-12-2004 05:36									#375
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Looking good. And (AFAIK) your rank seems also correct.

I like your current signature btw. That's going in my list of "Spartan quotes to use one day."

	19-12-2004 06:02									#376
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So I'll go ahead and post (in Kass's absence, and given that the Int Int deal with the Angels is live) the suggested Argenine response:

quote: Events are moving a little faster than our Morgan-Sparta diplomacy seems to be able to keep up with. The Federation will shortly be acquiring the technologies of Intellectual Integrity and Synthetic Fossil Fuels without involving Morgan researchers in their development. We are open to any other suggestions that the Corporation may have regarding future technology trades.

???

	19-12-2004 06:24									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Posted it. Can someone check, if I have my military rank right, over at the embassy? Just in case.

Good sabre-rattling post!!

I'd maybe have - if it were me - put a tag line on such as:

Lt. Commander Modo
(vigorously polishing his gun-barrels)

	19-12-2004 14:09									#379
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (vigorously polishing his gun-barrels)

Give me an armed ship, and I'll show them.

	19-12-2004 17:13									#380
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Meh, I had to take time off from here again. Maybe now I can get back now that my vacation has started. I'd need to start reading up on the diplo forums to get a hang of things.

	19-12-2004 23:21									#381
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This was posted by jtsisyoda at the embassy:

quote: It has technically been in neutral waters only. If you want to claim that northern sea area, consider founding a sea base. If you have some idea of what "your waters" are, please be more specific if you want us to understand what you mean.

Do we need to tell them about the Modo doctrine, or what is going on? I mean, it has been posted in the Phalanx, before jtsisyoda's message in the embassy... How far was that Gator Boat again? (A screenie would be most welcome, as I can't open the save.)

[EDIT: If that Gator is still clear, I'll write something about "issuing a warning". If it is too close, I'll just point them to the new Phalanx issue. Not making threats anymore, for we will be destroying that Gator. We can destroy it, right? ]

	20-12-2004 09:05									#382
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Trouble is - we don't know where their "Gator went in 2152.

Here's a screenie of the 2151 map, with the Hunter's 2152 moves superimposed.

But, of course, they don't know where the Hunter is, so a bluff might work

Attachment: hunter-gator, 2151.jpg
This has been downloaded 14 time(s).

	20-12-2004 09:09									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie So I'll go ahead and post the suggested Argenine response

This drew the response from jtsisyoda:

quote: Posted in the Embassy bu jtsisyoda Let's talk about a cash price for purchasing Eco Eng and/or HEC

Now we're smokin'

	20-12-2004 09:14									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 If that Gator is still clear, I'll write something about "issuing a warning". If it is too close, I'll just point them to the new Phalanx issue. Not making threats anymore, for we will be destroying that Gator. We can destroy it, right? ]

Problem is - our doctrine says "8 tiles from a Spartan Base" - they don't have us infiltrated, so they don't know where our bases are, so they don't know if they are 'transgressing' or not

	20-12-2004 14:08									#385
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The Gator was clearly less than 8 tiles from Rio Grande in 2151, before the Doctrine was made public. How about this:

"The Modo Doctrine clearly states, that a distance of 8 tiles should be kept at all times. This includes the distance of sea-going vessels from land bases, and vice versa. We want you to undestand that. You have been known to come closer than the proscribed distance in the past. It would be very unfortunate, if your Gator Boat ventured into territory you thought was neutral, and had to be destroyed because of this."

Perhaps add a "Consider this a warning." line...

	20-12-2004 17:28									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Trouble is - we don't know where their "Gator went in 2152.

While we don't know the exact location, we can look in the Vander Eudaimonics (the Gator's home base) support screen where the Gator is pointing to. It's pointed east, so we can assume they ignored our warning and steamed further towards the waters between Vladivostok and Arcadia.

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Give me an armed ship, and I'll show them.

Perhaps we should... jtsisyoda seems to call our bluff, and continue east under the assumption we are unable to do anything against him (which is the truth).

If we wanted to, we could build a cheap 2-row 1-2t-8 cruiser in Arcadia University and have it ready by MY 2155 to intercept the gator somewhere near Cape Wrath.
Another possiblility could be the more expensive 4-row 4-1-8 impact cruiser, which I think could also be completed in time, if we hurry it partially.

	20-12-2004 19:07									#387
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I think the cheaper ship is enough, for now. It can kill that Gator just as easy, we have more pressing builds for kicking Zak, and we surely don't expect any armed Morgan ships anytime soon. It can still be upgraded later, if need be. Sure, the stronger one would be nice. If we can spare the production - let's go for it, but only then.

Now, can I go find a good name?

	20-12-2004 19:25									#388
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I like the idea of building an additional ship, and I especially like it coming out of AU, giving us some immediate dividends on our liberation operation. Also, it is very much in character of us to do something like this if our Modo doctrine is threatened. I would go with the cheaper ship however, which we could maybe upgrade to a missile cruiser later on.

I just got this btw, but obviously Gator is a reference to litiGator, did everybody get that except me?

	20-12-2004 19:40									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I just got this btw, but obviously Gator is a reference to litiGator, did everybody get that except me?

A lawyer? Now I like the idea of sinking it even more.

How about "Judge", or "High Court" for our new Cruiser?

	20-12-2004 20:13									#390
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IIRC when Primus Pilus was appointed navy Commander there was a suggestion that our first ship (the Invincible) should be called the Enterprise. His feeling was that it was too grand a name for a foil, and should be reserved for our first cruiser-hull vessel

(If we want to keep the Enterprise name for a shard neutronium AAA marine battleship, and if our popgun cruiser is just for coast guard interdictions, how about SNC Retribution? - leave the legal nomenclature to the Morganites)

(And I didn't get the litigator reference - I thought it was alligator. But with their "defense attorneys" for defensive probe actions, litigator fits right in for offensive probe actions.