20-12-2004 20:26									#391
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It will be an offensive ship for sure, even if for Gator-hunting initially, so you can hardly put "SNC" in front. I think SCC Enterprise fits it very well.

[EDIT: Is my proposed answer to the Morgans ok with you guys? ]

Last edited by Modo44 on 20-12-2004 at 20:40

	20-12-2004 21:06									#392
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I like the proposed answer.

Maybe with a finishing statement, playing along with their roleplay:

After all, as litigation and defence counsel both know, ignorance of the law is no defence

(But I still think, as I said when we first broached the Doctrine, that 8 tiles from a base is too harsh. At 8, a Morgan ship could never leave Vander Eudaimonics. The game draws the Hiev Sparta border 2 tiles out from Laborers Throng and 2 from MT, splitting the difference, so 4 tiles from VE would seem to be in Morgan's sphere of influence.)

The question is, of course, could they back it up with action if need be? We can

Last edited by Googlie on 20-12-2004 at 21:16

	20-12-2004 21:16									#393
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Alright, I'm going to post it, with that very, very neat finishing line.

[EDIT: Posted. And get that ship ready for my lads.

If they feel 8 tiles is too much, they can always pay us for a corridor, right? We are flexible, after all. ]

Last edited by Modo44 on 20-12-2004 at 21:22

	20-12-2004 21:49									#394
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I just got this btw, but obviously Gator is a reference to litiGator, did everybody get that except me?

I had never heard of the word 'litigator' until now. I thought it referred to 'Investigator'.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie (But I still think, as I said when we first broached the Doctrine, that 8 tiles from a base is too harsh. At 8, a Morgan ship could never leave Vander Eudaimonics. The game draws the Hiev Sparta border 2 tiles out from Laborers Throng and 2 from MT, splitting the difference, so 4 tiles from VE would seem to be in Morgan's sphere of influence.)

Seems like a good compromise to me. If they don't like the Modo Doctrine we could propose splitting up the Buster Ocean with that as our negotiating goal. (And of course we could also split up the ocean between Eastern Arcadia and Western Morgania.)

	21-12-2004 10:41									#395
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quote: Posted by Argenine in the Embassy Let's talk about a cash price for purchasing Eco Eng and/or HEC

Morgan's research costs are 431 per tech (and they are producing 87 per turn - so they get a tech every 5 years)

A reasonable price for each would be 400 ec's, but maybe allow ourselves to be beaten down to 4 years' worth (87 x 4 = 348) rounded to 350

And none of this "over fifteen years" . Nothing less than 1/2 now with the balance over no longer than 3 years, I say

	21-12-2004 12:34									#396
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Ask for 500, and see what they answer. This way we might learn some more about their attitude to us. Of course, plan to go down with the price during negotiations, but use those negotiations.

	22-12-2004 01:19									#397
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Sure, go ahead and ask for 500 ec:s, just to get the cogwheels rolling in the Morgan money counting machines. They won't accept, or at least I hope they won't

	22-12-2004 07:25									#398
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Kassiopeia:

cf the Angels thread.

The Morgan trade ball is in our court.

They have asked if we are willing to sell Ecol Eng (which they are 3 turns away from researching themselves - 2 after this current turn) and HEC, and have asked the price

I have suggested internally that we ask for 400 ec's but that 350 ec's would be a fair price (4 years worth of their lap points, rounded up). the figure of 500 has been suggested as an initial asking price (would equate to 6 years worth of research - ie, longer than their current 5 year timeframe)

They are generating 129 ec's net (but owe us 10 per for techs/profit sharing plus a 1 time 15 for the balance of the PK commlink sale) so 500 ec's would represent 4.5 years of energy production (1 x 104 plus 3 x 119 plus 39 loose change)

I have no problem with starting the bidding higher than my suggested 400, but I think they'll pull a McEnroe ("You can't be serious".

Attachment: morgan economy.jpg
This has been downloaded 23 time(s).

	22-12-2004 13:20									#399
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Googlie, the idea is exactly to try and get that McEnroe from them. Hopefully some emotional reactions will show in their answer, and we can learn something for free. Of course, we can go down with the offer, and we probably will have to.

	22-12-2004 20:28									#400
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As Kassi is temporarily MIA and as Morgan will have the turn in a few minutes, I suggest I post the following:

quote: Suggested response to jtsyoda in the Embassy The Junta has been "pricing" Ecol Eng, which we note you will self-research in 2155. Your current cash flow - after resumed payments to Sparta - will be in the order of 125 per year for the next 4 to 5 years. Your current research rate gives you a technology every 5 years. Purchasing a technology should (obviously) be cheaper than self researching, or why bother. So the Junta has decided that 500 energy credits for Ecological Engineering would be a fair price (4 years' worth of cash-flow). This could be amortized over 4 years.

	22-12-2004 21:33									#401
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Yes, lets start this.

	22-12-2004 22:00									#402
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Posted in the Embassy

(and I can always send a Private Message "For your eyes only" to Arginine, to say that "I fought long and hard against the 500 cost but was outvoted, but I'm pretty sure that I could twist the arms of the Junta to agree to 400 if that were a Morgan conter-offer")

I'm liking it more than starting at 400 and being beaten down to 350

	22-12-2004 22:32									#403
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Nah, don't tell them that. Being capitalists, they sourely understand what negotiation is. And, just in case they don't, why tell them? Wouldn't you like to get 500 credits?

	23-12-2004 12:03									#404
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Well - it drew a response anyway:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by jtsisyoda This is too much. Our tech cost is only 431 anyway.

Counter with 431? 400? (we'd like at least 350)

	23-12-2004 12:14									#405
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Why not tell them 420? It's lower than the first proposal, and will look like we're aiming for 400. We might get more than 350 this way.

	23-12-2004 16:42									#406
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No, the way to barter is to now ask them how much they think it's worth. "Come on, you ask me how much it costs, why would you ask me that if you didn't have a price in mind?".

We gave them an opening price, their proper resonse is "No that's way to much! Look it has a mark right here, and this clearly isn't real leather. But I'll take it off your hands for 100, not a joule more."

	23-12-2004 16:44									#407
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EDIT: Removed, double post.

	24-12-2004 04:05									#408
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Shouldn't someone (Kassiopeia?) reply before their turntime runs out?

	24-12-2004 04:39									#409
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Go ahead, and ask them what they would like to pay. Might be a good idea to get some numbers from the Morgans.

	24-12-2004 05:30									#410
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Along the lines of:

quote: Proposed post to the Embassy Why don't you tell us what might be an acceptable price for The Corporation to pay? It'd be easy for us to reply "Ok - let's say 430 credits then" as we want as much as possible, ('cos we have numerous upgrades we need to make to adequately garrison our captured bases) Of course, you don't want to pay more than you need to, but this way we'll skip ten iterations of "430 - that's too much. OK, then, 420 - that's still too much,..... etc etc"

	24-12-2004 06:29									#411
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* Kassiopeia nods

Done and done.

	24-12-2004 06:31									#412
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Actually - this might be a better version:


Why don't you tell us what might be an acceptable price for The Corporation to pay?

It'd be easy for us to reply "Ok - let's say 430 credits then" as we obviously want as good a price as possible
But equally obviously, you don't want to pay more than you need to. This way, however, we'll skip ten iterations of "430 - that's too much. OK, then, 420 - that's still too much,..... etc etc"

Of course, it still can get bogged down should the Corporation come back with "300 - that's our maximum (or whatever) and then have the Junta say "Sorry - 375 was our minimum" (or whatever)

There's got to be an easier way - something automatic, like 80% of the research costs for the buyer, rounded to the nearest 25 ec's (that would then be 350) or 30% of the combined research costs of both parties (that'd be 375 ec's) ........... something like that which had a built in automatic escalator (as research costs increase, so does the price of technologies)


I'd like to see some kind of automatic calculation formula

	24-12-2004 06:41									#413
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Okay, I incorporated your proposition to my post, see how you like it.

	24-12-2004 06:41									#414
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(Saw the edited Embassy post)

Of course, until such a formula gets ironed down it itself is the subject of negotiations ("why not 65% of the buyer's research costs? Why not 25% of combined research costs", etc etc)

But eventually a Googlie Formula will emerge

(or as some wiseass once said:

Where there's a will there's a won't)

	24-12-2004 13:33									#415
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (Saw the edited Embassy post) Of course, until such a formula gets ironed down it itself is the subject of negotiations ("why not 65% of the buyer's research costs? Why not 25% of combined research costs", etc etc) But eventually a Googlie Formula will emerge (or as some wiseass once said: Where there's a will there's a won't)

Well, being a wiseass, I just flat out say that such a generic formula will never be perfect. I mean, how much would be charge the Gaians for Air Power if we had it right now? A lot more than it would cost them to research it ... There are a lot of economics at the bottom of these negotiations, but above that there is game theory and let's not forget honor

But I like the idea of having an economic framwork to base negotiations on.

"Googlies Formula suggests 342.3 ec, but since you supported our enemies in the last war we will only pay you 80% of GF, according to Snods Adjusted Table of Cost".

	24-12-2004 14:23									#416
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I agree with Snoddasmannen here. If we charge them for the tech cost, or even below, we get little value out of the deal. We should at least try to get exactly the tech cost, and even more if we can. What they have to pay for, is time. We give them a technology now, so they can start researching new things earlier. And we should be payed for saving them those turns.

Consider, that in 4 turns, we will have some more University bases conquered, some new bases built, more units, more upgraded units, ... If they can afford waiting, by doing research on their own, then fine - let them try. Make it clear to them, preferably by sinking that Gator...

Googlie, same thing happened with the Angels lately. You are being too nice to people.

	24-12-2004 14:46									#417
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I agree with Snoddasmannen here. If we charge them for the tech cost, or even below, we get little value out of the deal. We should at least try to get exactly the tech cost, and even more if we can.

Well wait a second here, I think you misunderstood me. I was just saying that in general, there is no exact formula you can use to determine the perfect price. I wasn't commenting on this case in particular.

In this case, I happen to think we should be happy to get 300 ec:s. I don't think the Morgans are willing to pay us more than they would pay themselves to get it, even if they got it quickly. So the negotiations are going well

quote: Googlie, same thing happened with the Angels lately. You are being too nice to people.

Well I agree the Lt. Colonel was too kind against the Angels, but this looks to be handled very well. In fact I like the way we are subtly mentioning these high figures. The lowest I've seen in this thread is 300, which is a figure I would accept for us, though I imagine it's very high for the Morgans.

	24-12-2004 15:35									#418
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Well wait a second here, I think you misunderstood me. I was just saying that in general, there is no exact formula you can use to determine the perfect price. I wasn't commenting on this case in particular.

Sorry, I did misunderstand you.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen In this case, I happen to think we should be happy to get 300 ec:s. I don't think the Morgans are willing to pay us more than they would pay themselves to get it, even if they got it quickly. So the negotiations are going well

Why exactly do you consider it good? We are planning to sell advanced technology, below it's research price, knowing very well that our tech advantage will be hard to keep. Hard to keep against the same faction we are selling to - the Morgans. IMO, they should be very happy with 400 energy credits, not 350, and definately not 300.

	24-12-2004 18:29									#419
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This was posted by jtsisyoda at the embassy today. Did we accept to pay them 50 energy credits for that Attorney? Or are they messin' with us? I thought we only suggested it, but came to no conclusion.

quote: Enclosed in turn 2153 you will find 5 ECs, but 5 ECs credit toward attorney fees. This is 40% of the Morgan Bonus ECs we received in trade with you, plus 8 for the installment of ET and GS trade. Profit Sharing Earnings Summary Amount Morgan Bonus Shared this Turn: 2 Cumalative Commerce Morgan Bonus Shared: 45 (43 shared in prior turns) Morgan Purchases Techs: Amount paid this turn: 8 Cumalative Paid: 72 (64 paid in prior turns) Balance: 48 Commlinks: Amount paid this turn: 0 Cumalative Paid: 30 Balance: 0 Total Cumalative ECs paid and shared, including prior years: 160 Morgan Attorney Fees Amount Billed this turn: 5 Cumulative Billed: 50 Balance: 0

	24-12-2004 18:49									#420
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We had mentioned 50 ec's as recompense for their loss, but gad tied it into a deal for Int Int

(We had essentially given them 3 choices
- declare Vendetta
- do nothing and accept the loss of their defensive probe
- offset 50 ec's agaisnt what they owed us and work a leapfrog with us to Int Int

They introduced a 4th:

offset the 50 ec's but othewrwise do nothing