24-12-2004 18:54									#421
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That doesn't sound very nice of them. Do you think the Morgans want war, or are they just trying to make us angry? Should we ask them, or can we act?

	24-12-2004 19:19									#422
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We (or at leasdt I) pretty much accepted the situation.
After all, we could have infiltrated at Red Fungus Resort, with no loss of Morgan units. But we elected to kill the prbe defender of a Treaty partner, so recompense was justified, IMHO

As to the linkage of that recompense with a leapfrog - we never did pursue that 'cos we saw a better deal with the Angels to get Int Int (althouigh it had its snafus, it seems to be going well enough now)

But essentially Morgan called our bluff.

We did have a flurry of internal saber-rattling until we realized that it'd take five turns for the University invasion force to backtrack and get to Morganland, and it just seemed in the realpolitik of what our strategy was that it was better to contine with initiating the Zak action and just leave Morgan till a later date.

	24-12-2004 19:47									#423
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I concur, we were already engaged in Arcadia and an operation in Morgania would have been out of the question. In fact, we have to be very careful not to attract an invasion to our soil now, btw. Someone might see this as an opportunity to try it.

	24-12-2004 19:58									#424
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I see. Basically, we can't kick them, excepty by means of Yang (and that is risky, not easy, or not even possible). We have suggested to pay for that Attorney, which seems fair. That is all fine and dandy. Well, it isn't, actually, but I understand we have to accept it.

What I don't like is them assuming they can take money from us without a clear agreement. We didn't offer to just pay them 50 energy credits, and they didn't write a thing about it, they just took some cash without asking. Now I see why we shouldn't make per-turn deals with those people.

My question is about diplomacy, not so much about our actions (as we can do little about it). Can, or should we try to talk to them about how they dealt with this matter? Or do we just go kick Morgan, when we're done with Zak, in which case this won't matter anyway?

	24-12-2004 19:59									#425
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all the more reason to spend whatever cash we get from Morgan on upgrading our scouts and goplites to 1-2t-1's (or after getting a juicy protoype, into 1-3t-1's) - that plus the CDF should render us nigh invincible until chaos noodles

	24-12-2004 20:39									#426
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I see that they (at least, jtsisyoda) like the certainty of a formula:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by jtsisyoda I agree with the formula principle. The board will need some time to convene on the matter

	24-12-2004 22:00									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I see that they (at least, jtsisyoda) like the certainty of a formula:

Of course they do. It gives them technology faster, and cheaper, than they could get it by self-research.


Anyway, I'm gone for tonight. Have a good Christmas everyone.

	25-12-2004 13:04									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 Why exactly do you consider it good? We are planning to sell advanced technology, below it's research price, knowing very well that our tech advantage will be hard to keep. Hard to keep against the same faction we are selling to - the Morgans. IMO, they should be very happy with 400 energy credits, not 350, and definately not 300.

Well there are a couple of reasons. First, I don't really consider the value of a tech to be equivalent to the so called research price. There are other ways to get techs, such as probing for them, or trading for it. The most expensive way to get a tech is to research it yourself.

But nonetheless, let's say assume you're right, and that we give them something that is worth 400 ec, and they pay us 300 for it, that sounds like a rip-off right? But I'm not so sure it is. We should do always do a trade if it promotes our chances of winning the game, ie (simplified) if the net result is a plus for us. So let's examine this shall we?

Turn 1
Morgan: 300 ec in cash
Sparta: 400 ec worth of tech
= +100 for Sparta

Turn 2
Morgan: 0 ec cash + 400 ec tech
Sparta: 300 ec cash + 400 ec tech
= + 300 for Sparta

So basically, we get to keep the tech we trade, but they don't get to keep the money they trade Also, if we sell it to them with an embargo, it is worth even less to them.

I don't really know enough about the game mechanics to say if this is a great trade though, but I am guessing it is. We can certainly use those ec:s to hurry troops to speed up our invasion of Arcadia. The faster we attack Morgan, the weaker they are. Of course, if we give them Eco Eng, they'll have enough minerals to build shiny titanium briefcases for an entire generation of defense attorneys. And HEC will allow them to brew some nasty xenobrew for their christmas parties. Which tech are we actually selling here?

	25-12-2004 13:37									#429
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Which tech are we actually selling here?

This is the point you didn't really consider, eh? Anything useful to them, should have a big price tag on it. Because, if they get it now, they'll have more time to prepare to defend, with better technology. It's not like the pure research cost matters. Like I said, the time adds value as well. Also, the specific application is something to consider.

Yes, we need cash, and yes, we should get it. My point is, we should not sell technology that would make us spend cash, by making their defense easier. Or, at the very least, sell it for more than just the research cost.

	25-12-2004 14:30									#430
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 This is the point you didn't really consider, eh? Anything useful to them, should have a big price tag on it. Because, if they get it now, they'll have more time to prepare to defend, with better technology. It's not like the pure research cost matters. Like I said, the time adds value as well. Also, the specific application is something to consider. Yes, we need cash, and yes, we should get it. My point is, we should not sell technology that would make us spend cash, by making their defense easier. Or, at the very least, sell it for more than just the research cost.

I certainly see your point, I just don't agree with research cost being such a definitive cut-off point. Remember, we don't have a monopoly on these techs, they might be able to steal or trade them off Zak or Lal or Yang, and then we would have gotten 0 instead of 300 for it. But let's wait and see if they actually make an offer before we have an official vote, where we'll probably have to agree to disagree anyway

	25-12-2004 15:40									#431
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I'm sorry to say, that I don't know enough about the impact of whatever we are selling. SMAC is just too easy in SP, so I never had to learn. I'm counting on others' opinions on this.

	25-12-2004 19:19									#432
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Right now it's Ecol Eng that we're dickering about (Morgan gets it self-researched in 2155.

We got it in a trade from Zak in exchange for Ind Auto, which we got from the Gaians in a trade for Gene Splicing which we stole from Zak (and the Gaian Ind Auto trade was embargoed, but we bullied them mercilessly to get the embargo lifted so that we could trade it to the AI)

So as far as our "research costs" for Ecol Eng are concerned, they amount to a trannie and a probe team, and a few years in transit.

Let's look at Morgan now, and how valuable this tech is to us - and them

Right now it's "worthless" to us in that Morgan will have it independently in 2155, or can probe it from Yang, Zak or Lal (risking Vendetta, which is bad for Morgan commerce) - or can trade it to them, or buy it from them.

My guess is that none of the AI is talking to them.

We are a source for them getting it.

They'd be crazy to pay more than 431 ec's for it. 'cos that's what it costs them to self research it.

Forgetting for the moment that they can change to another tech when the get EE, they'd be hard pressed to justify paying more than 174 ec's this turn for it (that's all they have left to pay to get it themselves.

They can afford to wait us out - in 20 turns they'll have 4 more self-researched techs while we still will be plodding along our "tech every 37 years" path (excepting our trade with the Angels for Int Int)

So to my math, this turn the tech is worth somewhere between 187 and 431 (and last year was worth between 261 and 431), with an escalator factor in that it accelerates their getting of their next tech (which may or not be HEC - their "holy grail" is bio-engineering for its clean reactors)

If we price it too high, then the techs just become useless inventory in our tech shelves. If we are concerned about a tech making Morgan too strong, then lets be honest and say "Sorry, it's not on the market" (as we have done with Nonlinear Math - we have bluntly said to all "We don't trade military technologies")

How badly do we need cash?

Well, we could mind control Monitoring Station for 700 ec's - that gives us a size-7 base with all facilities intact and 3 useful defenders inside. I'd say that was worth giving Morgan Ecol Eng and Env Econ in exchange.

That's the big picture we have to look at, rather than focussing in whether Morgan should pay 400 or 300 ec's by buying from us. (And in reality, for us, it's prolly 300 ec's or nothing, as there is a point at which - for Morgan - it isn't worth buying)

	25-12-2004 20:13									#433
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Alright, I get it. We are still a long way from actually invading Morgan. As it is, stalling their tech pace would be of less value, than I suspected. My points have been made, which is enough at the moment. I will give in to the majority on the final decision of the Junta.


In view of the power of Morgan's research, I think we should seriously consider taking those people down ASAP. I'd like to I propose that we prepare an invasion as soon as Zak is dealt with, or sufficiently crippled (depending on how the campaign progresses). Perhaps even while Zak is being dealt with, to try and catch Morgan off-guard. Otherwise, in my opinion, we are running a serious risk of being out-researched beyond the point of a possible Spartan win. Even if we can make good research efforts (assuming complete subjagation of Zak, and Lal) in the future, Morgan can do it now. And the longer we stay slow, the closer they get. I find it too dangerous to let them keep that trend.

Last edited by Modo44 on 25-12-2004 at 22:46

	25-12-2004 21:24									#434
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 What I don't like is them assuming they can take money from us without a clear agreement. We didn't offer to just pay them 50 energy credits, and they didn't write a thing about it, they just took some cash without asking. Now I see why we shouldn't make per-turn deals with those people.

Yeah I agree. That's why if we trade EcoEng we should try to get an immediate lump sum of cash. Because we might be forced to declare vendetta on them soon to eliminate their gator.

	26-12-2004 11:28									#435
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The turn has been sent to the gaians (it's now 2154) and when Morgan opens his they'll be 1 year away from Ecol Eng, so the pressure is mounting on them to do a deal this next turn.

I agree that we want oodles of cash now, not spread over the next umpteen years.

So I suggest that Kasssi takes the initiative while they are still deciding what's a fair price by saying something like:

"We should advise you that were a sale of Ecological Engineering from the Federation to the Corporation - or indeed any other future trade - be consumated, we would want at least half the agreed price to be up front.

It has galled us that you suspended payments to us for Ethical Calculus (while you unilaterally charged us the 50 ec's payment for your lost probe defender) while all the time you have been enjoying the use of Ethical Calculus

The Junta has determined that this will not happen again"

Something like that, that preps them for a heftier upfront payment while at the same time letting them know that we didn't like their unilateral high-handedness in just docking 50 ec's from our paycheques.

	27-12-2004 01:28									#436
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Initiative taken. Only fair in light of their transgression and since we really need the credits.

	27-12-2004 05:20									#437
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The Corporation is ignoring our warnings regarding their Gator Boat. Should Modo post something like this in the same thread as his last message?

"Very well, you have chosen to ignore our warnings. Know that our newest battle cruiser, the SCC Enterprise, has been placed under my command, with as mission to search and destroy the Gator Boat. Together with two other combat crafts who are converging around your position, I am confident your Gator wll be toast by MY 2156, unless you withdraw west immediately."

I was thinking, if they don't withdraw, we could build another 1-2t-8 cruiser in Messena and hurry it, so it's ready MY 2156. That ship should be able to cover our entire northern coast and hopefully track down the Gator.

	27-12-2004 05:38									#438
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What if I send a little less aggressive "we may have no choice but to use force" message first? Although as you have surmised already, they are probably trying to call our bluff, and only with the Enterprise on the horizon will they back off.

(Oh, and end the message with "There won't be any recompensation payments this time." )

	27-12-2004 05:51									#439
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia What if I send a little less aggressive "we may have no choice but to use force" message first? Although as you have surmised already, they are probably trying to call our bluff, and only with the Enterprise on the horizon will they back off.

Perhaps we should then start the message like this?
"As you still haven't shown any indication to withdraw from our territorial waters, you probably think we're bluffing and can't back up our claims. Should this be the case, we may have no choice but to use force, to teach you some respect for our borders. Know that our newest battle cruiser...

quote: (Oh, and end the message with "There won't be any recompensation payments this time." )

	27-12-2004 05:54									#440
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But what if they've withdrawn their 'Gator northwest around their own northern coast?

Aren't we being a little aggressive, not knowing the facts?

	27-12-2004 06:03									#441
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Why haven't they responded to us that they are withdrawing, if that is the case? We have no "Oops, we're pulling back" from them.

	27-12-2004 06:39									#442
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Indeed.
Also, we can see in the Vander Eudaimonics unit support box that their gator is pointing south IIRC. If it was withdrawing, I assume it would be pointing somewhere west.

Some further bad news: the Gator which was in Choke On This last turn is now pointing east (see Red Fungus Resort unit support box). They've also started constructing another Gator on their eastern coast. Hopefully they're meant for the Hive, and not us.

	27-12-2004 06:48									#443
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Well, their last post on the matter was:

quote: Posted in the Embassy by jtsisyoda It has technically been in neutral waters only. If you want to claim that northern sea area, consider founding a sea base. If you have some idea of what "your waters" are, please be more specific if you want us to understand what you mean.

So I don't see where they needed to withdraw anywhere until we told them what was permissible and what was not.

	27-12-2004 14:52									#444
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I think Googlie is right here. I think Morgan is keeping the Gator away from our "borders", and that's why they didn't answer my warning in the embassy - they didn't need to. And it was a warning already - no need to repeat it, IMO.

OTOH, if they do try to call a suspected bluff, I think we must destroy the Gator, to make sure they get the message. Otherwise they could feel like they got away with it. We'll know soon enough.

	27-12-2004 18:05									#445
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 I think Googlie is right here. I think Morgan is keeping the Gator away from our "borders"

But the jtsisyoda quote Googlie posted here indicates the Morganites don't share our definition of Spartan borders. So I don't see any sign they're withdrawing.

Fact is last year their Gator was pointing east, and this year it was pointing south. So unless the boat followed some VERY strange trajectory back to the west, the Gator is most likely somewhere in the coastal area where Messena will be founded.

Anyway, if you don't want to send any message, I can certainly live with that. I just thought, since Googlie has such a strong focus on building Crypteia, that doing everything not to get infiltrated was one of our priorities.

	27-12-2004 18:14									#446
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac But the jtsisyoda quote Googlie posted here indicates the Morganites don't share our definition of Spartan borders. So I don't see any sign they're withdrawing.

I agree. And in my reply to that, I clearly stated what we consider our waters, and what will happen, should they enter Spartan territory. That's why no additional threats/clarifications are needed IMO. I see no point repeating ourselves.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Fact is last year their Gator was pointing east, and this year it was pointing south. So unless the boat followed some VERY strange trajectory back to the west, the Gator is most likely somewhere in the coastal area where Messena will be founded. Anyway, if you don't want to send any message, I can certainly live with that. I just thought, since Googlie has such a strong focus on building Crypteia, that doing everything not to get infiltrated was one of our priorities.

The point is, I don't think we should be repeating threats. People who do, seldom fulfill them. Instead, let's wait where the Gator shows up next. If I understand things right, we can have the Enterprise ready before it does. So, If Morgan didn't turn away to keep clear, let's destroy their boat, and then tell them that we didn't bluff.

I will post the message, if the Junta finds it necessary. I understand it is good for our diplomatic look, if I keep the angry talk, so I'm willing to do this, even against my judgement.

	27-12-2004 18:15									#447
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I can live with that.

You're right, repeating threats we already made is unlikely to do any good.

	02-01-2005 21:20									#448
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How about I take the Morgan Embassy offline (as we did with the Gaians)

Angry mob of helots burn Embassy to the ground - make a neat story

	02-01-2005 22:32									#449
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Yes, definately. Once they feel the pain, they'll come in whining anyway.

	02-01-2005 22:40									#450
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jtsisyoda posted a reply to our special edition of the Phalanx in the general forum:

quote: quote from the Phalanx: unwillful servitude under a self-appointed master Why is it ok for Spartans to destroy Morganite units, and illegal for Morganites to simply give a few poor navy guys a raise?

Scheeesh, get over that probe thing guys