11-11-2004 19:04									#31
	Remove this text

then:

quote: Originally posted by Maniac in the 2146 turn thread Ouch too late I see for another suggestion I wanted to make: upgrading the Chiron Knights this turn already. I've been playing a few turns ahead with the simulator and I've noticed that we won't have time to move our three rovers to VV and upgrade them before MY 2150. This means we'll probably have to delay capture of University Base to MY 2151 as the earliest realistic date.

	11-11-2004 19:06									#32
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The troops will need to spend 2 turns in the transport, as UB is 7 tiles away from VV. Can't they be upgraded in transit?

Below are the 3 alternatives, and surely the first is the best (the second needs the trannie drop anchor and wait a year in Unibay harbour for the turn to shift, and while in 3 the rovers can roll from VV up the road and on to the trannie, same thing - they couldn't attack that turn.)

So if the units are boarded in VV they can be upgraded on that first leg of the journey. No?

Attachment: invasion.jpg
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	11-11-2004 19:07									#33
	Got spare money?

Of course, if we instabuilt the MCC, it'd have 8 movement points ---- but can we do that as well as snag the Command Nexus?

(And in my opinion the MCC is a more valuable SP. The CN just gives a CC in every base, with a +2 morale boost to every land unit built and 1-turn heakling of injyred troops - that's good. That can be replicated by just building the Command Center in key bases.

The MCC not only gives a NY in every base) with a commensurate +2 morale to every naval unit built and a 1-turn healing in port for injured naval units, but also confers an additional 2 mp's to every naval vessel While Naval Yards also confer a 100% defense bonus to a base being attacked from the sea, the MCC gives that automatically to every coastal base.

Anyway - that's for another discussion (the CN bersus the MCC)

	12-11-2004 01:08									#34
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quote: The troops will need to spend 2 turns in the transport, as UB is 7 tiles away from VV. Can't they be upgraded in transit?

Unfortunately not if we want to leave VV in 2149. I testplayed it, and IIRC CK and Shinsengumi will only arrive in Vladivostok MY 2149, and Warwag MY 2150. So two problems:
1) 2149 CK and Shin will have spent their movement points and will no longer be upgradeable. So they'd have to do it MY 2150, but then they would already be before the coasts of Uni Base, provided the cruiser transport left VV 2149. Too late in other words.
2) Then there's the second problem: Warwag only arriving MY 2150. If we want to take the unit along, the cruiser transport will either have end MY 2149 anyway in Vladivostok, or on the starting position you indicate in picture "starts outside base (2).

So as far as I can see two options:
1) Execute picture "starts in base", but one year later: MY 2150 instead of MY 2149.
2) Execute picture "starts outside base (2)". I've testplayed this one in my five-year simulation attached below, if you want to have a look. Ignore the base build orders. They're just placeholders as there's lots of uncertainly about our near future plans (eg will we acquire DocLoy?).

	12-11-2004 04:30									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

Just as an aside. Zak will complete the Virtual World in University Base in 2155. As you know, when you conquer a base all current build is lost, a rec commmons is destroued (if there is one) and the computer starts a defensive unit in the build.

What's the downside of waiting until Zak has completed the VW before we take University Base?

G.

	12-11-2004 22:11									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Just as an aside. Zak will complete the Virtual World in University Base in 2155. As you know, when you conquer a base all current build is lost, a rec commmons is destroued (if there is one) and the computer starts a defensive unit in the build. What's the downside of waiting until Zak has completed the VW before we take University Base? G.

If we waited with starting a war, the downside would be not gaining control over the University resources for as many years as it takes to complete the VW. Current total UoP mineral production is 58, and I believe the energy production when not under Free Market would be somewhere near 26. Though of course the production will decrease as a consequence of population and facility loss, and the need to appoint doctors to quell drones in their large bases.

Or do you think we could start the war by invading another base than University Base? Do you think University Base would continue building the Virtual World, or switch production immediately as a consequence of our declaration of war?


Btw, how about renaming this thread to "The Council of War"?

	13-11-2004 03:57									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We could always invade Koppernigk Observatory first: it's probably also 2 transport turns away from us, just like University Base. Problem is, the base is size 2. So unless we have some major luck, the base will probably be destroyed upon capturing it.

	16-11-2004 19:36									#38
	Increase Your PM Length

I just had a quick look at the turn.
Bad news: the Angels have started constructing the Virtual World.
This means Zak most likely won't make it.
IIRC the only other SP still available to him is the Merchant Exchange. That costs 140 mins for him. Currently University Base hase 123 mins accumulated, with an annual min production of 10 IIRC. This means that he'd finish the ME in two years time. We only get Doc:Ini next year, so this means it would probably be too late to gift that tech to him in the hope he'll build the MCC for us.

	17-11-2004 01:04									#39
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Ah, but University Base seems to be suffering from drone riots. So it'll loose a year of production, right?

	18-11-2004 19:43									#40
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Ah, good point!

	19-11-2004 11:15									#41
	Got spare money?

So does that mean we can gift Zak Doc:Init and he will switch to the MCC? If so, that sounds like a bargain to me. Sure we loose a couple of years of Uni occupation, but we gain a heck of a lot of minerals

	19-11-2004 15:50									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen So does that mean we can gift Zak Doc:Init and he will switch to the MCC?

I have no idea. It could also be that he'll just stick to the Merchant Exchange and leave the MCC for what it is.
Something to be tested with my simulator this weekend I suppose.
Of course giving Doc:Ini to Zak would not be without risks: the technology could easier find its way to other factions.

	19-11-2004 19:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Of course giving Doc:Ini to Zak would not be without risks: the technology could easier find its way to other factions.

I agree, let's not be too quick to give this one up. For a number of years (still, in fact, with 2 factions) flex has been an "ace in the hole". Let's keep cruisers that way as long as possible.

Some turns ago Morgan discovered flex - and we know he had probes even then (Maniac cleverly spotting the armored probe defender at Vander Eudaimonics) - so I'll bet they have a few probefoilds in the water right now hunting for the AI to get a slice of these lucrative deals we dangle before them.

(Another reason I want defensive probes in all our coastal bases for sure and all our inland bases eventually)

	24-11-2004 10:28									#44
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It's been bugging me for a couple of turns now that Lal won't talk to us, so with the moving on of the turn to the Gaians, I reopened it as a simulation to see what diplo options there were with the PK's

He'll talk to us only if we have already Pacted with Zak - and he wants to pact as well

He'll pay 20 ec's for Morgan's commlinks (!!!)

He offers HEC for Industrial Base

And he'll trade us his world map for Doc Loyalty

Maybe we should consider this?

	24-11-2004 10:44									#45
	Increase Your PM Length

Hmm - on further simulating, we don't need to Pact with Zak to get Lal talking. He'll speak to us right after we trade with Zak (and he'll do the Morgan commlink purchase as well as the HEC trade and also buy Doc Loyalty and Prog Psych from us at 25 ec's each)

	24-11-2004 15:19									#46
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Sounds great.
A possible problem, do we have anything left we can trade to Zak, in order to make Lal speak to us?

Last edited by Maniac on 24-11-2004 at 18:23

	24-11-2004 20:13									#47
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Just Doc Initiative. It was unclear from the discussion thread whether the concensus was to trade/sell that to Zak to see if he'd change to the MCC in time for us to capture it. I was leaning towards not giving it to him so that he'd complete the ME at University Base before we arrived.

In the 2148 turn, Lal will talk to us right after we talk to Zak, even if we refuse everything Zak offers.

In fact, he'll talk to us even before we talk to Zak. But somehow with the combination of events in the actual gameturn I couldn't get him to talk. Unless I did call him up, but wouldn't sell Morgan's commlink. He clams up therafter, refusing any trade at all. (I don't remember in the gameturn if I did call him, but am deducing that I must have, 'cos in every other circumstance, simulating, he responds to a call. But that would have been before Maniac saw the Morgan-Uni contact, so I would have refused the Morgan commlink in any event)

So let's see if we can finesse a simultaneous sale of each others' commlinks this next turn. If we can get Morgan to agree to 40 ec's (or even 30) and at the same time sell theirs to Lal for 20, it'll rank right up there with the Gaians' doubledeal of yore)

On a side note - we know that Zak has 2 Ogres roaming around. It'd be good to get a plasma sentry or 2 over to UB pretty soon after we take the base .............. plus ........... get those Elite rovers hunting them down (or a probe that can subvert them, maybe?)

	25-11-2004 16:23									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Just Doc Initiative. It was unclear from the discussion thread whether the concensus was to trade/sell that to Zak to see if he'd change to the MCC in time for us to capture it. I was leaning towards not giving it to him so that he'd complete the ME at University Base before we arrived.

I agree with that.

Btw, just in case Lal wouldn't want to talk to us after all without trading with Zak, I was thinking we could perhaps contact Zak and offer him a small sum of credits. I guess that should count as a trade of sorts. Still have to test whether this could work though.

	25-11-2004 19:11									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

I looked in the simulated run about repaying our loan and borrowing again. He has 179 and we owe 180, so I thought that he'd reloan us 1/2. Trouble is that we repay 180 and reborrow just 119 (1/3rd) so that's not so good!!

	06-12-2004 09:41									#50
	Got spare money?

Bad news (sort of) .....The uni are building up their defenses at University Base (there's a lurking, damaged mindworm)

Attachment: uni-2150.jpg
This has been downloaded 22 time(s).

	06-12-2004 23:25									#51
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We're going to be hit with drone riots at UniHQ, as we'll have at least 2 if not 3 attacks on the base to take out a defender, and each atatck destroys a base facility. These will likely be, in order, rec commons, holotheater and then the creche

(And doesn't each attack reduce the pop by 1, or is that just for air attacks?)

We need to send doem Hol;ites over with the second wave (currently a rover and a Longstrider are being prepped for the reconstruction force.

We can build a Hoplite there, byt I'm thinking we need to produce more Hoplites and Crypteia in our Homeland bases (rather than crawlers for the moment)

	07-12-2004 15:25									#52
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So how and when are we actually invading Arcadia? It was discussed earlier in this thread but I can't see if a clear conclusion was reached. Is it next turn or do we need to wait yet another turn to have time to deploy?

	07-12-2004 19:21									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (And doesn't each attack reduce the pop by 1, or is that just for air attacks?)

AFAIK a pop is lost when you:
a) capture a base
and
b) destroy the last unit in a base.
So 2 pops lost in every base we capture => University Base will have 5 population left. So if it would be necessary to prevent riots we could always make all workers technicians. Could cause starvation though.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen So how and when are we actually invading Arcadia? It was discussed earlier in this thread but I can't see if a clear conclusion was reached. Is it next turn or do we need to wait yet another turn to have time to deploy?

Next year!

	07-12-2004 19:30									#54
	Put an end to popups!

We attack next turn

Mercury moves 2 tiles east, (solid green, below) and unloads Shinsengumi to land (yellow) who attacks, killing off the synthmetal defender currently being built. Being Elite, it should still have another mp left, so will also then kill off the scout patrol.

Next, Chiron Knights will land and engage the syntharmored Impact squad, then with its remaining mp will take the base.

Mercury will then enter the base (dotted green line) and unload the remaining 2 units who will have all their mp's left.

Then that 3rd Impact rover will mosey down to Koppernigk Observatory (1 mp), take out the synthsentry there (2nd mp) and take the base with its 3rd mp

Mercury will then head back towards Vladivostok to collect the 2nd wave - and in fact will overnight rest at its current location (it'll have 7 mp's in 2151, its basic 5 plus the 2 from the MCC)

We should get some 50 ec's or so from the 2 bases (out of 6 that he has, with 216 energy reserves, a good chunk will find its way into Spartan koffers)

A still unresolved question is at what point do we call Zak to get him enslaved - or do we incorporate those - and the otehr 4 - bases into the Spartan Federation?

Attachment: invasion plan.jpg
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	07-12-2004 19:48									#55
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Sounds great! Let's just hope that:

a) There are no formers or anything else blocking the road from UniBase to KopObs
b) None of Zaks probe teams are out on the move (he has a fair amount of cash...)
And we should also be aware of the mind worm hanging around university base.

I'm just curious, why didn't we upgrade Spartan Kel to a marine? He would have been very helpful in destroying the defences in UniBase.

And hey, should we call up KrysianKrusader? As I recall, he wanted to be notified when something exciting happened - well this is the most exciting thing yet

	07-12-2004 20:05									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Sounds great! Let's just hope that: a) There are no formers or anything else blocking the road from UniBase to KopObs

Hmm - good point - he does have a former homed to KopObs, as well as a colony pod rumbling about somewhere, clogging up the roads

quote: b) None of Zaks probe teams are out on the move (he has a fair amount of cash...)

he doesn't have a single probe unit built - nor does Lal (so Arcadia is a probe-free zone)

quote: And we should also be aware of the mind worm hanging around university base.

It looks like it's 70% to 80% damaged

quote: I'm just curious, why didn't we upgrade Spartan Kel to a marine? He would have been very helpful in destroying the defences in UniBase.

Marine comes with Adaptive Doctrine, which we don't have yet

quote: And hey, should we call up KrysianKrusader? As I recall, he wanted to be notified when something exciting happened - well this is the most exciting thing yet

I e-mailed him last turn to say the invasion fleet had sailed

	08-12-2004 19:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Sounds like a plan! How will we call this whole operation btw? I was thinking about Operation Barbarossa, seeing Zak's Russian and the Spartans are sometimes depicted as fascists, but this may be a too sensitive name for some... [quote]Mercury moves 2 tiles east, (solid green, below) and unloads Shinsengumi to land (yellow) who attacks, killing off the synthmetal defender currently being built. Being Elite, it should still have another mp left, so will also then kill off the scout patrol. Next, Chiron Knights will land and engage the syntharmored Impact squad, then with its remaining mp will take the base.

Minor question: would the scout patrol (as weakest unit) not be attacked last, after the two synthmetal defenders? Not that this will have influence on the attack though I think.

quote: Then that 3rd Impact rover will mosey down to Koppernigk Observatory (1 mp), take out the synthsentry there (2nd mp) and take the base with its 3rd mp

Problem here may be that the base is only size 2 (2 turns away from growing to size 3 right now IIRC), so will be destroyed.

quote: We should get some 50 ec's or so from the 2 bases (out of 6 that he has, with 216 energy reserves, a good chunk will find its way into Spartan koffers)

Yeay! The UoP reserves are funding our war. (Or funding crawler upgrades for the CDF of course)

quote: A still unresolved question is at what point do we call Zak to get him enslaved - or do we incorporate those - and the otehr 4 - bases into the Spartan Federation?

In the invasions I played with the simulator, Zak never surrendered. Let's hope it's different here.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I'm just curious, why didn't we upgrade Spartan Kel to a marine? He would have been very helpful in destroying the defences in UniBase.

I guess you mean amphibious. That would cost 30 credits, while Kel already has an impact weapon. So little bang for the buck IMO. For that cash we can almost hurry us a brand new impact infantry.

quote: It looks like it's 70% to 80% damaged

Indeed. So if necessary I guess Spartan kel could easily deal with it for some extra cash. (Which if I read correctly won't attack yet in Googlie's plan outlined above)

	09-12-2004 22:35									#58
	Remove this text

In playing with the sim, it appears that after we physically move into the base it'll drop to size 6, and will lose the rec commons, holotheater, and rec tanks (ie will just be left with the HQ, Network node and the creche. 4 of the 6 pops will be drones, even after we land all our troops, so we'll need to convert a couple to specialists.

I don't think that there'll be much left by way of minerals for rehoming units - so perhyaps its first build should be a Hoplite to help in freeing the elite rovers to carrry on with the invasion

	10-12-2004 16:26									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I don't think that there'll be much left by way of minerals for rehoming units

So, referring to the 2151 turn planning thread, does that mean you would opt not to burden our conquered lands with supporting our troops, and thus limit our rehoming to only two units (to make use of the two free support slots)?

quote: Problem here may be that the base is only size 2 (2 turns away from growing to size 3 right now IIRC), so will be destroyed.

Thinking further about this, we could perhaps destroy the Koppernigk garrison, but not yet take the base. Destroying the garrison would reduce the base to size 1. As a consequence only two instead of three nutrient rows would have to be filled, and Koppernigk would have enough nuts accumulated to grow back to size 2 the year after. Thus we could capture Koppernigk MY 2152 without destroying it.

	10-12-2004 16:51									#60
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Will the new bases be able to (re) build structures fast (less than 10 turns)? If yes, don't rehome our invading forces, so the new land can become productive faster. If no, by all means rehome the invading forces - it won't mean much over there, while giving us back some production at home.

Of course, this assumes that rehoming will be possible at all. Meaning, those bases have to be taken first.