08-10-2004 04:58									#1
	Invasion plans for University/Lal Axis Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This thread is devoted to discussion of our invasion of Zak (and eventually Lal).

When we infiltrate Zak, we'll hopefully be able to piece together a super-nifty F4 map of University territory. Then we'll be able to go into more detail. So far, our plans seem to be:

*An invasion force of 3 impact rovers (a few of them elites) and an elite impact infantryman, transported by two transport foils.
*General probe raping of tech.
*Long term goal is to acquire industrial centers, get lots of juicy tech, and make Zak our biotch.

I'm sure this show of our military prowess will gain the admiration of the others too. Perhaps they will admire us so much that they will feel like giving away lots of tech or energy credits, all of their own free will. Of course, from time to time, we may have to remind them exactly how much they admire us. Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. First, some things we need to think about :

*When to strike? (infiltration will help us decide)
*Where to strike? (ditto)
*Will we need defensive probe invaders? (ditto)
*How will we police our newly-captured cities? Rush-build scout patrols? Hold back our invasion forces? (I say to that). Rush rec commons? Not worry about police, and just starve the citizens into submission? Switch to Police State? Nervestaple? Sacrifice 300 University researchers to the gods of war? Feed them xenoburritos? Feed University prisoners to Chairman Yang? So many options. We need answers!

So, discuss...

	08-10-2004 05:52									#2
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And if we do manage to make Zak submissive in a few turns of hi-action momentum warfare, do we then gift him back the captured bases so that he can again excel at what he's good at - research?

(If so - and even if we just end up pacting with him, we should prepare ourselves to garrison a probe team or 2 in every Uni base, to avoid the others just probe raping him as well. And maybe even a best-morale, best armor defender of ours placed there too. So that if any other faction wants a piece of Zak then need to take on us as well)

	08-10-2004 06:15									#3
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Ah, yes, definitely. I agree with all of that. We will have to defend our investment very carefully.

I also wonder: If we make Zak our submissive, then does Lal automatically become our submissive too?

	08-10-2004 06:26									#4
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Was that the way Buster set it up? Lal subservient to Zak (or vice versa - I can't remember). If its Lal to Zak, then I don't think Lal would default to us, but he'll be feeding techs to Zak, who'll pass them on to us whenever we call (and remember, when the 20 year sunspots hit, we'll have to use our probe teams if we want techs, and I'm sure I read somewhere that this is grounds for a slave to call off the submissive pact

We'll know soon enough when we infiltrate Zak next turn or the one thereafter

	08-10-2004 06:32									#5
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Yes, stealing tech would cause a submissive to end the pact, usually, at least. I actually got away with it once. I think they said something like "I was going to give that to you anyway, so I'll let it slide, but don't do it again." But I think you have to be really nice to your submissive to get away with it.

And you are correct, Lal is submissive to Zak. So, the way I understand it, even though Lal won't be directly submissive to us, he'll still be submissive to Zak, and thus in a roundabout way we will be able to direct Lal's actions through Zak? This would mean that we need only conquer Zak, and Lal will be at our beck and call too!

	08-10-2004 06:34									#6
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Guys. You better have a look at this.

Game set up info thread.

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 08-10-2004 at 07:07

	08-10-2004 06:55									#7
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What the...? That thread says Uni is submissive to PK. That's the opposite of what I've thought all along. That also doesn't make sense for a couple of reasons. Uni has consistently been much stronger than the PKs. Uni has had the tech lead at times, which doesn't make sense at all because a submissive AI will almost always share its tech with its master faction.

	08-10-2004 08:17									#8
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So an attack on the Uni will bring us into conflict with the PKs

No biggie, as we are actually larger than the PK's (remember that their council votes total is double their population's) with our 15 pops to their 14. And we surely have superior weaponry

But interestingly, if we ask each one in turn to attack the other, a different price is put on their pact friendship:

Attachment: acdg3-stirring.jpg
This has been downloaded 40 time(s).

	08-10-2004 08:45									#9
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So you see by the price asked, that the UoP is definetly submissive to the Peace keepers...

Mmmm...

	08-10-2004 09:58									#10
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if we don't mess around with the human nations, then we need to get the university soon. before they get air power of course. The problem I have sometimes, is once the university get cranking, it's hard to stop them. Their technological superior units can be tough. I'm gettin' antsy. I want to start bonking some heads

	08-10-2004 10:00									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie And if we do manage to make Zak submissive in a few turns of hi-action momentum warfare, do we then gift him back the captured bases so that he can again excel at what he's good at - research? (If so - and even if we just end up pacting with him, we should prepare ourselves to garrison a probe team or 2 in every Uni base, to avoid the others just probe raping him as well. And maybe even a best-morale, best armor defender of ours placed there too. So that if any other faction wants a piece of Zak then need to take on us as well)

good thoughts on post-war. But first things first.

	08-10-2004 10:50									#12
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When we attack the Uni, the Gaians and their possible human friends will be able to figure out that we have our forces committed. They might see this as an opportunity to gang up on us. They can certainly send swarms of probe teams at us, or Morgan might make the Hive declare war, and who knows, they might even have some expeditionary forces ready to deploy.

Attacking the Uni is a rather predictable move on our part, and if they consider us a threat they might have made plans to counter it, or make some up as they go along.

That said, I still consider this attack the best move, but emphasis should be on a speedy and daring invasion so that we can quickly redeploy our forces and our attention and solidify before the other humans get naughty.

So roll rovers roll

	08-10-2004 20:48									#13
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quote: Attacking the Uni is a rather predictable move on our part, and if they consider us a threat they might have made plans to counter it, or make some up as they go along.

Yes, excellent point. The biggest threat will be probe teams, I think.

	08-10-2004 22:19									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen When we attack the Uni, the Gaians and their possible human friends will be able to figure out that we have our forces committed. They might see this as an opportunity to gang up on us. They can certainly send swarms of probe teams at us, or Morgan might make the Hive declare war, and who knows, they might even have some expeditionary forces ready to deploy. Attacking the Uni is a rather predictable move on our part, and if they consider us a threat they might have made plans to counter it, or make some up as they go along. That said, I still consider this attack the best move, but emphasis should be on a speedy and daring invasion so that we can quickly redeploy our forces and our attention and solidify before the other humans get naughty. So roll rovers roll

good thoughts. We have some distance from the other human factors. But we have to watch they don't pay the hive to attack us. This is exactly why we don't want this war to drag on too many turns. Don't want to leave our homeland too undefended.

	09-10-2004 00:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident if we don't mess around with the human nations, then we need to get the university soon. before they get air power of course. The problem I have sometimes, is once the university get cranking, it's hard to stop them. Their technological superior units can be tough. I'm gettin' antsy. I want to start bonking some heads

Don't worry. Zakharov is controlled by the AI. He'll be a push over. Even if he has... (Strike that. You'll see later on.)


Rushing things before one is properly prepared, is among the greatest downfalls I('ve) see(n).

This is a strategy game. I'm afraid that things won't develope as fast as you seem to want. Look at the recent turn, Dissident (It's posted in the top thread). It'll tell you a lot about where we're at, and our current capabilities.

	09-10-2004 00:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Don't worry. Zakharov is controlled by the AI. He'll be a push over. Even if he has... (Strike that. You'll see later on.)

Tut, tut - did someone "play ahead" and sign a pact with Zak on a trial basis and thus get a peek at his bases?

	09-10-2004 00:42									#17
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Hundred push-ups for punishment! NOW!

	09-10-2004 01:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Tut, tut - did someone "play ahead" and sign a pact with Zak on a trial basis and thus get a peek at his bases?

?
Not at all. (Actually, I'm surprised you said that.)
That's against the rules.

I'm not sure if I wrote it; here, or in the strategy forum, or even at another site.

The AI factions, no matter how beefed up (suped up), is still controlled by whatever its programming allows. It cannot adapt to changing circumstances and react accordingly. A human on the other hand can. Hence human controlled factions, can adapt and overcome the obstacles put in their way. This is something the AI cannot do. The AI factions are predictable. Humans can maneouver around their predictability and use it to their advantage.

I just didn't want to spend extra time typing, for a situation that won't become evident for quite some time to come yet.

	09-10-2004 01:29									#19
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Ah - my profoundest apologies.

(I was reading into the "Even if he has.......... " unfinished sentence my own unexpressed fears that the sentence might be completed " ...... ECM Plasma Armor defenders in all his bases")

This seemed to be bolstered by your following comment:

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Rushing things before one is properly prepared, is among the greatest downfalls I('ve) see(n).

which seemed to be suggesting to us that we wait until we have better equipment or armor

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader That's against the rules

In the last game we had a (Pirates) player who joined mid-game and sent ships scurrying hither and yon exploring (he wasn't the turn-player) and was unaware of the no alternate play rules. I thought perhaps - especially as you had done some AI Diplobox scenario work early after you arrived - you had pacted and inadvertently seen the base defenders in Zak's bases.

Again, my apologies for casting aspersions your way

	09-10-2004 01:53									#20
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No problem buddy.


I figured it was just a missunderstanding due to individual perception.

If I could type as well, as fast, and as eloquently as the rest of you... We wouldn't have these instances.

	09-10-2004 04:34									#21
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The projected route of the SNC Hermes (fungus permitting):

Attachment: 2141-probemission.jpg
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	09-10-2004 08:49									#22
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SNC Hermes on her proving trials outside Vladivostok

Attachment: hermer.jpg
This has been downloaded 27 time(s).

	09-10-2004 11:21									#23
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Any reason why you think that north will reveal a UoP base faster than south? Is it a hunch? I don't have the turn open at the moment, thus not really remebering how close Zakharov might be to the top of the map edge.

	09-10-2004 17:05									#24
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See the 2126 mapset here

We met further north than VV's location (by a couple of tiles) and his trannie was pointing south, suggesting he'd come from northeast of VV

	10-10-2004 05:59									#25
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Ou yeah.

Thanks. I member now...

	10-10-2004 10:58									#26
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The recent diplomatic events seem very positive for our invasion of the Uni. I would be very surprised if the Gaians or the Morgans chose to mess with us in the near future, so it seems likely that our attack will go without the brutal retaliation I was afraid of before. We know little of the Angels, but if they are close with the Gaians, like the Morgans would have us believe, they are likely to follow a similar foreign policy.

Of course, it is possible that they have set this up to appear that way, but I doubt it

	10-10-2004 11:28									#27
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My only concern is that notwithstanding our 2 Ogres and our Elite rovers, our might is still classified as feeble which is baseline bottom (there are 7 categories, and each of the 7 factions is assigned a relative category, and we, the Spartans, are propping up the other six!!

(The 7 are:

feeble, anemic, wanting, sufficient, formidable, potent, unsurpassed.

	10-10-2004 17:05									#28
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I still wonder why that is. Is it technology? AFAIK should not be. It can't be population either. So it'd have to be either energy credits, or military might.

	11-11-2004 19:00									#29
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(copied from the 2146 turn thread)

We currently have 165 ec's in the kitty, and will get another32 in the 2 years to 2148 (assuming we renew the Morgan - Hunter deal), making 197 in total

We'll need 40 to change to Fundy, leaving 157.

If we reset the sliders in 2148 to 30:10:60 we'll net 9 ec's from our own resources, totalling 22 with the Morgan payments

Establishing the invasion force

It costs 60 ec's to upgrade a Scout Rover (1-1-2) to an unarmored Impact Speeder (4-1-2), so we'd need 180 to allow 3 upgrades. The earliest that we'd have that in treasury would be 2150

We have currently an Impact Infantryman (Spartan Kel) and will have an Impact Speeder rolling off the production lines at Santiago Citadel in 2152. Assuming we morale-boost it thru the monolith at Sparta Command, the earliest it could board a ship would be 2155

So the results of this mini-analysis is that it's prolly not worth persevering with the Impact Rover build at SC2 - we'd get another Impact Infantryman for 1/2 the price (and could rush it for 10 ec's next turn for completion in 2148 - but it wouldn't reach Vladivostok until 2151)

So the question becomes:

do we wait till 2150 and upgrade 3 rovers to Impact and then set sail?

do we change SC2's to an infantryman, and set sail in 2151 with 2 rovers and 2 infantrymen?

do we wait until 2155 and set sail with 4 impact rovers?

(actually, it looks as though the new podpopped rover could pass thru the monolith and reach Vladivostok by 2154, so that, too is an alternative - but the cost for that option is 240 in upgrades)

	11-11-2004 19:02									#30
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To which Maniac replied:

quote: Posted by Maniac in the 2146 turn thread I've also giving some thought to that. Here's what I came up with: IIRC University Base currently has three defending units. So we could capture that base with upgrading only one elite rover. First the Spartan Kel land with their first move and destroy the UoP impact infantry. Secondly the upgraded elite rover lands and destroys the IIRC two remaining scout patrols. Then there are two units left in the transport to take the empty base. So if necessary we could begin invasion with only part of our force upgraded, and upgrade the rest a few turns later when we have the money. As for changing or keeping the SC2 rover production, it's all fine by me. We could certainly use those minerals to build something else like a former, crawler, colony pod... But if we'd decide to keep building it, it not catching the first trannie to Zakland isn't a problem as far as I can see: could our transport not simply take a second trip to Zakland, filled with for example the SC2-built rover, a probe team, the podpopped rover or a second probe team, and perhaps a colony pod from the crater area? And if we don't want to send it to Zakland, it could safeguard our homelands: a mental reassurance against those massive Hivean hordes.