26-12-2004 13:37									#121
	Remove this text

Personally, I'd secure Monitoring Station first. It's too valuable to leave it to probability.

	26-12-2004 13:46									#122
	Suffering from ads?

I also support accepting Zaks surrender if it appears. We will want to give a lot of those bases back to him anyway, and time is of the essence.

	26-12-2004 20:06									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We also need to check whether, after accepting Zak's surrender and then turning on Lal, Zak has grounds to abrogate his surrender and join with lal in fighting us (iw does a prior submissive status supercede a later one?)

	26-12-2004 20:59									#124
	Suffering from ads?

Another option is to bribe Lal to declare war on Zak. Then we'll have Zak all to ourselves. This was terribly expensive a while back, 500 ecs or something like that, but maybe they'll settle for Adaptive Economics now that Zak is so weak

Btw, programming-wise, I am not so sure they would keep track of at which time an alliance is made. I wouldn't think they really had a double-submissive in mind when designing the game. It should be subject to some neat testing.

	26-12-2004 22:42									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen Another option is to bribe Lal to declare war on Zak. Then we'll have Zak all to ourselves. This was terribly expensive a while back, 500 ecs or something like that, but maybe they'll settle for Adaptive Economics now that Zak is so weak

Just ran a parallel turn to see what the diplo position would be.

If we ask him to attack Zak, and offer a tech, he'll give us the "He's done me no wrong " speech

If we instead ask him to "Name his price", he'll declare Vendetta on his pact bro' for 450 ec's

If Zak becomes submissive and then we enter Vendetta with Lal, Zak stays in a submissive pact with us

	27-12-2004 00:55									#126
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Googlie The intent of moving onto that particular tile was to avoid the possibility of losing one to a foray by the about-to-be-built Uni Impact squad. The base is linked by road thru the monolith to that sunny tile, and we'd be just above it, within striking range (albeit a rush attack with its final 1/3rd mp).

Are you sure about that? There doesn't seem to be a road on that river tile, and it costs full mp's to go from a road to a river tile or vice versa. It's only when you travel along the river that it gives you a movement bonus.

Anyway, I like their position since those who have infiltrated the Uni can't see all our forces

	27-12-2004 01:16									#127
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You can see the road from the base screen, but not from the general map:

The yellow box is where Manaic was asking why I didn't go there (we're 1 tile to its northwest)

The solid yellow line is 2/3rds of a Uni move, with the attack being the third (coming from Otk-Obs)

Attachment: jeapordy.jpg
This has been downloaded 27 time(s).

	27-12-2004 01:23									#128
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They could also attack with their next-turn-comp[leted impact infantryman from Mon Stat:

Attachment: jeapordy(2).jpg
This has been downloaded 26 time(s).

	27-12-2004 05:43									#129
	Increase Your PM Length

Some replies to the messages of today and yesterday:

quote: Originally posted by Googlie And it looks like Zak is prepping for an attack on Argos (why else an impact Infantryman? - for that % bonus of infantry attacks base)

I'm glad he didn't decide to build impact rovers. Those would be much harder to defend against.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Our plans were to take Otk-Obs, then move over the road to Climatic Research to secure that eastern shoreline (and deny infiltration/techsteal to Morgan - that's the longstrider's mission (currently in Argos) - he'll next steal the Uni's maps then garrison ClimRes against probe action

I'm afraid Climactic Research can't be captured, as it's only a size 2 base. It would be destroyed upon entering it.

quote: (I say take the maps, 'cos in one of the parallel turns for AI diplomacy purposes we got the message form Zak "I have a very nice map of Morgan territory ..." and while I think I've been able to piece it together pretty accurately from their base screeies, it's always good to get confirmation)

Q: If Zak became our submissive ally, would we also get the maps he acquired from other factions (ie, the Morganite map if we're lucky)?

quote: Originally posted by Googlie The intent of moving onto that particular tile was to avoid the possibility of losing one to a foray by the about-to-be-built Uni Impact squad. The base is linked by road thru the monolith to that sunny tile, and we'd be just above it, within striking range (albeit a rush attack with its final 1/3rd mp).

Ah good thinking!

quote: (The 2 units with Kel are Warwag - rehomed to Argos) and Chiron Knights (homed to MT) - 50% damaged after killing off the mindworm. In reserve - the second wave - are Castor Horsemen - homed to SC2 and Shinsengumi - homed to AU)

Thanks. This'll make it easier to update the Unit Inventory.

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I also support accepting Zaks surrender if it appears. We will want to give a lot of those bases back to him anyway, and time is of the essence.

This has been suggested before, but I really don't understand what's the advantage of doing that. Sure, Zak should be able to produce a few more labs than us. But on the other side, we lose the population, minerals, credits of the returned bases, along with all the territory and terraformations around it (and Arcadia is much better terraformed than our continent!).

So when comparing the advantages and disadvantages, I personally think it's much better to keep everything we've conquered.

	27-12-2004 05:45									#130
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yeah, I concur that the real estate in Arcadia is second only to Central Hiveria, and acquiring as much of it as possible is a priority. But with the Gator situation possibly escalating, getting Arcadia over with ASAP is, IMHO even more important.

Hopefully we can make the decision about annexing or not annexing the University after we have determined whether the Morganites will back off without a show of force. (I assume they will have the pretext for vendetta once we destroy the probe foil? Or not?

	27-12-2004 05:55									#131
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I assume they will have the pretext for vendetta once we destroy the probe foil? Or not?

Destroying that probe foil would cause a Vendetta.

	27-12-2004 05:59									#132
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Destroying that probe foil would cause a Vendetta.

Unless they're in our coastal waters and we take the second choice:

• Annihilate them
  
• Interrogate them and return them unharned
  
• Do nothing

	27-12-2004 06:02									#133
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Modo44 How many bases will Zak have left, after we capture the 3 we plan to take now?

Here's an overview of the remaining University bases:



As you can see, the University has five bases left.

Monitoring Station (size 7) and Otkrietia-Discovery (size 4) can of course be captured without destroying them.

Then there are two size 2 bases and one size 1 base.

If we wanted to, Budushii Dvor could be captured the same way as we captured Koppernigk Observatory/Argos. First destroy all defenders, thereby reducing the base to size 1. It has sufficient nutrients accumulated to grow back to size 2 the year after. So then we could take over the empty base.

This is not the case however for Climactic Research and Mendelev College. Mendelev College is size 1 so would be destroyed no matter what. And Climactic Research has too little nutrients accumulated, so would too be destroyed.

	27-12-2004 06:05									#134
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Unless they're in our coastal waters and we take the second choice:

Problem is the sea borders of a land base only extend one tile into the sea. So it would have to be a real coincidence should the Gator be in exactly that one tile of sea territory we'll have in the north after founding Messena.

I wished Firaxis would have extended sea borders a bit further. Then you could set up a naval probe defence without having to declare vendetta.

	27-12-2004 06:12									#135
	Got spare money?

When we get more mineral-rich and build a seaformer or two, we should back up our Modo Doctrine by planting some sea sensor buoys for advance warning of incursions into our declared no-go zone (or have a couple of trawlers with deep radar installed working some ocean tiles)

	27-12-2004 08:14									#136
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Maniac So when comparing the advantages and disadvantages, I personally think it's much better to keep everything we've conquered.

I agree

Here's (hopefully) what North Arcadia will look like in 2154

	27-12-2004 08:38									#137
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Whoa, hang on, I never realized there were so few Uni bases in the first place! Extending the war to bring about total control of the area doesn't seem like such a bad choice now. I'd say, don't accept submission if we don't have Monitoring Station. Modo

	27-12-2004 09:01									#138
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I think if we can achieve the above in 2154 (ie capture Otk-Dis, bully him into giving up MonStat and buying/bullying into getting Clim Res) we can then accept his surrender. To postpone risks him bringing his 2 Ogres into play and we might lose some units that will be necessary to prosecute the subsequent advance into Southern Arcadia and takeover of Lalaland

The only downside to leaving him a couple of bases would be their vulnerability to probesteal - we can minimize that by stationing probe defenders in his bases or by transferring control of probes to him

	27-12-2004 14:09									#139
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wow, lots of discussion last night

You have convinced me that keeping the bases is indeed a good idea. Monitoring Station is a very strong base, and I agree that winning it is a prerequisite for accepting a submission. But I would rather win it through extortion (or even paying some energy for it) than taking it militarily, since the latter would destroy so many of the buildings in the base (and dangerous for our probe teams).

I don't think the last two bases in the east (Budishii and Mendelev) are important enough to waste time and risk forces on. So Googlies 2154 plan looks perfect

	27-12-2004 14:37									#140
	Remove this text

I don't think we should allow ourselves to lose more units than necessary. Monitoring Station is definately worth it, but the other small bases don't present enough value, to take on two Battle Ogres.

	27-12-2004 20:30									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think the key to Climatic research (for 2154 or 2155) will be where Morgan's trannie and longstrider - and their Western ocean 'Gator - are. If they are back in port, and if they have, say, stolen a tech or are now 1 turn away from whatever (not ecol eng) then we'd be safe to extort Clim Res this next turn and send our own Pippi loping westwards to set up shop in Clim Res in 2155

But if their trannie/probe or western 'Gator are still out and about we should wait until 2155 before calling Zak up and buying/extorting Clim Res (ie after we have our peobe defender in place)

I'd like for us to get our footprint on Arcadia's eastern ocean just to stop Morgan sending Colony Pods there. There are a lot of juicy forested tiles on that coast that someone who didn't care about a Vendetta with an emasculated Zak might find tempting to colonise. But they'll think twice if it's our territory and our base that's sitting there guarding that prime real estate.

Attachment: climres&environs.jpg
This has been downloaded 19 time(s).

	28-12-2004 22:56									#142
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I think if we can achieve the above in 2154 (ie capture Otk-Dis, bully him into giving up MonStat and buying/bullying into getting Clim Res) we can then accept his surrender.

I've played with the sim, and while it (obvioiusly) isn't the game itself, it's proven pretty accurate in the past as regards AI behaviour

We can capture Otk-Dis, then he declares submission to us

We can bully him into ceding Monitoring Station to us, but when I try to bully him into giving us Clim Res he gives us the finger.

Offering to buy it works, though

	28-12-2004 23:00									#143
	Suffering from ads?

Sounds like a plan. If we have the necessary cash, that would be a quick and effective solution.

	28-12-2004 23:09									#144
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

So Googlie, do you need someone to do the diplo-testing parallel to the actual turnplaying?

	28-12-2004 23:12									#145
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

That'd be ideal - maybe run it together in the chat room

	28-12-2004 23:16									#146
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Oops, nevermind.

	28-12-2004 23:16									#147
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

But, again, I'd propose upon opening the turn to see where Morgan's probes are (or at least, where they are pointing)

In an ideal world they'd be back in base after a successful infiltration/techsteal - that way we'd be risk-free in buying Clim Res right away (our longstrider will take 2 turns to get there)

Otherwise I'd wait until 2155 before calling Zak again and buying Clim Res

	28-12-2004 23:17									#148
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

beat me to it!!

	28-12-2004 23:18									#149
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, I realized that just now.

	30-12-2004 05:22									#150
	Suffering from ads?

I'm wondering, if we waited a few years with asking for Climactic Research instead of asking for it immediately after Monitoring Station, would he then give it for free, or still ask for credits?