09-10-2004 18:50									#241
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: Originally posted by Ned I find it interesting, for example, that Latin did not survive in the British Isles even after the Romans had ruled there for more than 400 years AFAIK it did better than the original language

Huh? Didn't the Brits continue to speak their native Gaelic (Gaulic) tongue even into modern times.

	09-10-2004 19:16									#242
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Shold have said: neither did the original.

	09-10-2004 19:21									#243
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Ah, but there I must respectfully disagree. My wife, who is Brazilian, exclaimed that "They are speaking Portuguese," when the Romans began speaking Latin in the movie "The Passion of the Christ."

	09-10-2004 20:18									#244
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Barriers to communication are unfortunatly very often located in other human behaviour that language. And also, in some instances, these barriers are a protection : for instance I would prefer never understand the words eructated by Ned. You could also consider the basic english used by people all over the world; it hardly exceed 100 words, and one can doubt that it will ever be sufficient to communicate complex and sensible ideas and feelings. Molly bloom has probably one of the best writing expression of Apolyton, and in every post I find one or two words that I dont understand, and very often that my dictionnary ignore as well! I certainly express myself more precisely and deeply in my autochthonous language. So you can forget your imperialistic dream of 6 billions people speaking english in lieu of their native language.

Imperialistic? I never said it would be best if everyone spoke English, just that it would be best if everyone spoke one language. The fact you point out, that not everyone speaks the same language, quite obviously does not disprove my point.

	09-10-2004 20:20									#245
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I have heard some saying that the English language has not survived in the US a well.

Which is a very odd statement, given that the colonies spoke much better English in general than the English did, and that even the worst Southern accent is really a preservation of seventeenth-century English.

It was England that started really changing the language, after the break with the colonies.

	09-10-2004 20:43									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos quote: quote: That's a reflection of reality. There are two Americas. The coastal urban centres with a "progressive" culture and interior with "traditional" culture. I have heard you spout this idiotic myth based on nothing many a time, what exactly is its origin?

Do you not even know your own country? Look at your national voting pattern and then look at who votes republican vs those who vote democrats. The republicans do better in interior states while democrats do better in coastal states (west coast and northeast US). These voting patterns reflect different cultural values.

	09-10-2004 20:46									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Which is a very odd statement, given that the colonies spoke much better English in general than the English did, and that even the worst Southern accent is really a preservation of seventeenth-century English. It was England that started really changing the language, after the break with the colonies.

How do you definite "better English"?

	09-10-2004 20:47									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka It is part of their identity. Besides, languages are richness. The more you can speak, the more you can communicate. They sound different and sound nice. They're just different protocols, but more important.

Languages can affect how we think, particularly written language.

	09-10-2004 20:51									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai How do you definite "better English"?

The English spoken in the colonies was far more uniform than spoken in England and much better spoken than the average Englishman (i.e., by the standards of the English aristocracy's control of the language being better). At the time, Englishmen had what is now a Southern accent (in general; they had a lot of dialects that were almost seperate languages in terms of comprehension). This is all from The Americans by Boorstin.

	09-10-2004 20:53									#250
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It was uniform? So how does he explain the difference in accents between Boston, New York and Atlanta?

	09-10-2004 21:14									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Don't most Germans speak the other variety of German (err, Low German?) and the differences between the two dialects are such that mutual comprehension is iffy? Add on hundreds of years of Amish self-seperation and they might as well be speaking an entirely different Germanic language.

Speakers of High German most comfortably outnumber those of Low German these days. However, most of them speak varieties that differ considerably from Modern Standard High German. Some of them would be considered separate languages in different political conditions.

If you call Low and High German "dialects", you can just as well throw in Dutch too - it's in many ways closer to Low German than High German is.

(Always remember, BTW, that "High" and "Low" refer not to status but to geography - High German is the language of the hilly and mountaineous south, Low German of the flatlands and coasts of the north.)

	09-10-2004 21:17									#252
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Of all things, the one I really can't understand people wanting to preserve are languages. Why the hell do you want barriers to communication?

Says someone prone to pick up private jargon on web fora.

Us-vs-them identification is a primary human need.

	09-10-2004 21:24									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It was uniform? So how does he explain the difference in accents between Boston, New York and Atlanta?

That's the point - the dialectal variety in the US is small compared to that in England; practically uniform in comparison.

	09-10-2004 21:28									#254
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Several Englishmen and Americans of the time made quite a note of it, in fact.

	09-10-2004 21:29									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It was uniform? So how does he explain the difference in accents between Boston, New York and Atlanta?

Compared to the differences in accent between different parts of England, where nearby towns could practically speak a different language?

	09-10-2004 21:29									#256
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@I'm not sure how the Roman Empire proves that having one language is good. It was functionally bilingual on the administrative level for most of it's existence, including the entirety of the "classical" period from Augustus to Constantine. The only times the population was anything like of one language was it's final phase when it was reduced to Greek-speaking bits of Greece and Anatolia.

Needless to say, the EU doesn't amount to anything like "common rule", and for certain won't for a considerable time to come.

	09-10-2004 21:29									#257
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I don't know if it was more uniformed back then, but assuming it was how does that prove the theory that colonial American English was better?

Last edited by Tingkai on 09-10-2004 at 21:37

	09-10-2004 21:31									#258
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quote: One of the lessons of the Roman Empire is that one language and one culture were good.

I thought the Romans in the eastern half of the empire used mostly Greek and not Latin.
Having a common language for business is a good thing. Forcing people to use that language everyday would be bad, but I can't see anyone promoting that today.

	09-10-2004 21:38									#259
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Hang on -- I want to hear more about how Shakespeare spoke with a southern twang.

	09-10-2004 21:40									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I don't know if it was more uniformed back then, but assuming it was how does that prove the theory that colonial American English was better?

It gives you something to go on about

	09-10-2004 21:41									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I don't know if it was more uniformed back then, but assuming it was how that prove to the theory that colonial American English was better?

I'm repeating the comments of Englishmen and Americans at the time.

Besides, if American speech is more uniform, in general it will be better.

As another example, the speaking was clearer (American English emphasized, for one thing, actually sounding out syllables when learning to read - that's an American invention).

An example: Rev. John Witherspoon (came from Scotland to become the first president of Princeton): "The vulgar in America speak much better than the vulgar in Great-Britain, for a very obvious reason, viz. that being much more unsettled, and moving frequently from place to place, they are not so liable to local peculiarities either in accent or phraseology. There is a greater difference in dialect between one county and another in Britain, than there is between one state and another in America."

	09-10-2004 21:42									#262
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Nothing wrong with southern accent.. Some make fun of it, but I think it's nice accent. I'd like one of them cowgirls to come with a gunbelt and cowboy hat on (nothing else!) and say 'come on Pekka darling, ride me like a little pony', and I'd be all Yeeehaas!

	09-10-2004 21:42									#263
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It was "better" than what the English spoke in the sense it was closer to the Standard (and yes, there was a Standard version of English back then).

	09-10-2004 21:43									#264
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Hang on -- I want to hear more about how Shakespeare spoke with a southern twang.

Yup, what we call a Southern accent is really just seventeenth century English, and it was used in the North and the South of the colonies.

	09-10-2004 21:43									#265
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Surely, in the modern age of literacy, learning a second language is possible without destroying the primary language. This just proves the point that Chirac's fear that the world is choking on American values is absurd at best and borders on willful delusion.

quote: Do you not even know your own country? Look at your national voting pattern and then look at who votes republican vs those who vote democrats. The republicans do better in interior states while democrats do better in coastal states (west coast and northeast US). These voting patterns reflect different cultural values.

Please note that there are lots of very large cities in the interior of the country. Also note that most Americans live in suburbs, not inner cities. So, for instance, the metropolitan Houston and Dallas areas -- among the largest cities and most modern in the US -- are strong Republican.

	09-10-2004 21:48									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Yup, what we call a Southern accent is really just seventeenth century English, and it was used in the North and the South of the colonies.

You know this conflicts with generations of Shakeperean actors and historical reenactments, right?

How did they figure this out? I'm thinking poetry and songs, for some reason.

	09-10-2004 21:50									#267
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Well, Boorstin says so, and he's a leading scholar of colonial history, and this book (well, a few chapters of it, but I read the whole thing) is part of my high school US history curriculum, so...

	09-10-2004 21:51									#268
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Plus, it makes sense.

	09-10-2004 21:58									#269
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Funny how Chirac doesn't warn of a catastrophe of a world 'choked' by Western values, of which the Anglo-American is but a subset of a larger group that includes, a-hem, France.

	09-10-2004 22:08									#270
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In case anybody cares, American films have represented 28% of Palm d'Or winners since 1939 (18 winners). However, even our made-for-TV productions have been known to beat out the worlds best cinematic creations, as was shown last year when Gus van Sant's Elephant, a movie first aired on HBO, won.

Palm d'Or winners by BO take: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/genres.../?id=cannes.htm