09-10-2004 02:24									#181
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He was talking about Dissident.

	09-10-2004 02:27									#182
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Re Pennsylvania Dutch, here's what a random web site says about it...

quote: Most Amish are trilingual. They speak a dialect of German called Pennsylvania Dutch at home; they use High German at their worship services; and they learn English at school. They speak English when they deal with anyone who is not Amish. They pronounce Amish with a broad "a" (Ah-mish). The Amish are a private people who believe God has kept them together despite pressure to change from the modern world. They are not perfect, but they are a strong example of a community that supports and cares for its members. They are a people apart; they are also a people together.

The site says they speak High German, but I doubt any German nowadays could understand their form of it. My sister-in-law who is German couldn't understand them.

	09-10-2004 02:30									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker He was talking about Dissident.

Realized it afterwards. This post has been misunderstood twice so far (by Geronimo too).

	09-10-2004 02:33									#184
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quote: Doesn't France have more important things to do, like devising ways to violate sanctions?

To the French, that's like walking and chewing gum at the same time.

	09-10-2004 02:40									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Which just goes to show that even in Quebec, people prefer American music and films to local ones. So?

You should read the whole thread. Your failure to acknowledge that capitalism has such a way to auto-congratulate itself in a way that an entire culture can be built around 'circular' values (people pay for good stuff, but good stuff is defined by what people pay for) shows that you miss the mark.

Market tends towards uniformization, to a point that advertising and marketing become integral part of a culture. Governments should work against that because other values defended by founding principles can't survive adequately in a laissez-faire market.

And though this is a discussion about art more than about politic, it is rather obvious that the techniques behind Hollywood movies are directly aimed at pleasing a viewer with moral and psychological tricks, and are miles away from encouraging free thinking, artistic research and the likes.

Modern 'Aufklarung' democracies require an educated people to function properly, who understands the values behind the Social Contract. When a powerful financial interest collides with basic principles, and tries to circumvent any effort in this direction to substitute it for its own interest, it's time for some regulation.

	09-10-2004 02:40									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Realized it afterwards. This post has been misunderstood twice so far (by Geronimo too).

for the record I understood the post I just pointed out that I didn't agree that the Quebecois flip flop on everything

	09-10-2004 02:46									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ah, so you're just complaining that because so few people want what you want that no one even bothers to supply, others must be compelled to purchase what you want in order to create enough demand for it to be economical.

No, when an oligopoly becomes so strong and stuck up that people can't even want something because of a lack of exposure, then the government should act to make a particular market more free-flowing.

Anti-trust legislation does exist and I doubt that you disagree with it. Culture can be administered with similar intents in mind but the government should give itself broader freedom in this regard, because culture can be determined not only by who sells it but also by more larger patterns of genre, origin, etc.

	09-10-2004 02:51									#188
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Re Pennsylvania Dutch, here's what a random web site says about it... The site says they speak High German, but I doubt any German nowadays could understand their form of it. My sister-in-law who is German couldn't understand them.

Don't most Germans speak the other variety of German (err, Low German?) and the differences between the two dialects are such that mutual comprehension is iffy? Add on hundreds of years of Amish self-seperation and they might as well be speaking an entirely different Germanic language.

	09-10-2004 02:52									#189
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Anti-Trust Culture? Interesting. You can't break up a monopoly for having a supieror product or because of historical accident. You would have to prove anti-competitive measure by the monopoly culture

	09-10-2004 02:53									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris You should read the whole thread. Your failure to acknowledge that capitalism has such a way to auto-congratulate itself in a way that an entire culture can be built around 'circular' values (people pay for good stuff, but good stuff is defined by what people pay for) shows that you miss the mark.

As opposed to your weird pseudo socialist 'circular' values in which local people want good stuff which is defined by what local people want? Both 'circular' reasonings appear to be equivalent. I define good stuff as that which people are willing to pay for with money or pay for by other means. How is that definition more circular than your definition that good stuff is what people locally produce?

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Market tends towards uniformization, to a point that advertising and marketing become integral part of a culture. Governments should work against that because other values defended by founding principles can't survive adequately in a laissez-faire market.

It is strange then that there seems to be a wider and wider variety of things to buy all of the time.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And though this is a discussion about art more than about politic, it is rather obvious that the techniques behind Hollywood movies are directly aimed at pleasing a viewer with moral and psychological tricks, and are miles away from encouraging free thinking, artistic research and the likes.

So what? locally produced movies protected by government mandate from competition would likewise be miles away from encouraging free thinking, artistic research and the likes. Isn't it strange that the Oscars always seem to reward artistic innovation over popularity? Perhaps the Hollywood elite actually value these things even more than does the general public.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Modern 'Aufklarung' democracies require an educated people to function properly, who understands the values behind the Social Contract. When a powerful financial interest collides with basic principles, and tries to circumvent any effort in this direction to substitute it for its own interest, it's time for some regulation.

Then obviously it is not time for regulation!

	09-10-2004 03:00									#191
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It seems to me that those who are the most against "American cultural hegemony" are those who have the least confidence in their own culture. Why would they otherwise be afraid of foreign culture?

I watch American movies, eat Indian, Italian and Mexican food, drink Irish beer and Finnish vodka and so on. Still I define myself and my culture as Swedish. Or rather as "Norrlänning" (Northerner/coming from northern Sweden). The choice to adopt parts of foreign cultures as your own is NOT the same to me as loosing your own culture. Culture is dynamic and you just enrich it. If your culture is so useless it can't survive some foreign influences, well good riddance!

As for subsidising culture, I think it's a good thing if it aims to help people "get started" in making movies, music etc. Gives the masses a chance the be exposed to new, interesting stuff that the big companies don't provide (yet). It's a bad thing if it's just used to preserve an obsolete, stagnating culture.
(like the French)

	09-10-2004 03:49									#192
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quote: techniques behind Hollywood movies are directly aimed at pleasing a viewer with moral and psychological tricks, and are miles away from encouraging free thinking, artistic research and the likes.

I see we've never seen a Hitchcock movie. The 'thinking' movies are mostly out of vogue (though they still exist) because people in the US want to go to the movies to have fun, not think too much, they do that in their jobs.

As for the market tending towards uniformity... that must be why I only eat burgers every day... oh wait, I had Chinese the other night, and Pizza before that, and Mexican last week. Vietnamese a few weeks ago. Perhaps I'll go for Thai, and if I liked Indian, I could get it any time I wanted. All within driving distance. That's not mentioning Japanese (been a while since I've been there), Morroccan and Ethopian foods I can get at any time.

What uniformity?

	09-10-2004 03:57									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris You should read the whole thread. Your failure to acknowledge that capitalism has such a way to auto-congratulate itself in a way that an entire culture can be built around 'circular' values (people pay for good stuff, but good stuff is defined by what people pay for) shows that you miss the mark.

The only objective sense of 'good' is 'what most people want'. The fact that what most people consider good and what is "objectively" are the same should be obvious from this. People don't buy decide things are good because other people think they are good (well, actually they do, but hey, it's their choice), they buy what they enjoy.

You're the one that missed the mark. There's no circularity, beyond some people's tendency to want to join the bandwagon, which is their choice.

	09-10-2004 04:04									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris No, when an oligopoly becomes so strong and stuck up that people can't even want something because of a lack of exposure, then the government should act to make a particular market more free-flowing.

Of course you can want it. Obviously you haven't been afflicted by this, otherwise you wouldn't think there was a problem (and there wouldn't be). So that's clearly not the case. In addition, by your logic the government must fund exposure to each and every conceivable form of culture possible, so that everyone has a full range to choose from. That's just stupid. If you really want to look for something else, there's plenty of stuff on the web, or you can even use your own money - imagine that, not being able to use someone else's money - to go and find it.

It's like complaining that there aren't any good games in a particular genre because no one buys that type of game, and then demanding that the government fund development of that type of game and restrict the development of other types.

quote: Anti-trust legislation does exist and I doubt that you disagree with it. Culture can be administered with similar intents in mind but the government should give itself broader freedom in this regard, because culture can be determined not only by who sells it but also by more larger patterns of genre, origin, etc.

The problem isn't a monopoly, the problem is no one cares about your stupid culture! They're all happy to adopt ours! It's not our fault your own people don't like your culture as much as they like ours, it's yours. Why the hell should the government prop up anything that is failing for the sole reason that no one wants what it's selling?

	09-10-2004 04:29									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid It seems to me that those who are the most against "American cultural hegemony" are those who have the least confidence in their own culture. Why would they otherwise be afraid of foreign culture? I watch American movies, eat Indian, Italian and Mexican food, drink Irish beer and Finnish vodka and so on. Still I define myself and my culture as Swedish. Or rather as "Norrlänning" (Northerner/coming from northern Sweden). The choice to adopt parts of foreign cultures as your own is NOT the same to me as loosing your own culture. Culture is dynamic and you just enrich it. If your culture is so useless it can't survive some foreign influences, well good riddance! As for subsidising culture, I think it's a good thing if it aims to help people "get started" in making movies, music etc. Gives the masses a chance the be exposed to new, interesting stuff that the big companies don't provide (yet). It's a bad thing if it's just used to preserve an obsolete, stagnating culture.

	09-10-2004 04:31									#196
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quote: I watch American movies, eat Indian, Italian and Mexican food, drink Irish beer and Finnish vodka and so on. Still I define myself and my culture as Swedish. Or rather as "Norrlänning" (Northerner/coming from northern Sweden). The choice to adopt parts of foreign cultures as your own is NOT the same to me as loosing your own culture. Culture is dynamic and you just enrich it. If your culture is so useless it can't survive some foreign influences, well good riddance!

Precisely. For example, from what I can tell, most Finns know English rather well (NB: I know that you aren't Finnish). They watch some American TV. They watch American movies. They participate in the English-dominated Internet to a mind-boggling degree. But do we honestly believe that US culture has much impact on the Finnish culture? I suggest that the impact is a lot more limited than some would have us believe.

	09-10-2004 04:32									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui As for the market tending towards uniformity... that must be why I only eat burgers every day... oh wait, I had Chinese the other night, and Pizza before that, and Mexican last week. Vietnamese a few weeks ago. Perhaps I'll go for Thai, and if I liked Indian, I could get it any time I wanted. All within driving distance. That's not mentioning Japanese (been a while since I've been there), Morroccan and Ethopian foods I can get at any time. What uniformity?

I hate those damn damn Italians and Mexicans for making such good food that I hardly ever eat home cooked American food anymore

	09-10-2004 04:34									#198
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Why haven't we choked the world yet?

	09-10-2004 04:36									#199
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I guess we like to savor the moment.

	09-10-2004 04:36									#200
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Alot of Italian food is Italian-American food. Alot of Mexican food is Tex-Mex so no worries there. A good steak or Burger is best though, washed down with Canadian Beer, and a side of french fries. So Im indulging in three cultures every meal.

	09-10-2004 04:36									#201
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We're a bunch of cold blooded bastards.

	09-10-2004 04:41									#202
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Right, my apologies for my first rant in this thread. It wasn't very constructive and it was a bit racist

the no AC and no elevator thing is not very cultural thing anyway. And after all this was a bout movies and other kind of cultural influences.

Just for the records, our theaters do play other movies too than Hollywood movies. Hollywood movies are their own genre, just like French movies and domestic ones. I like them all. Hollywood.. you can't compare it to other genres. Because they are different genres in a way. Hollywood usually has good production, and all that good stuff. And they make lot of movies too and promote them more aggresively. Of course there is nothing wrong in that. But Hollywood movies ARE made more for the American audience than others. And of course they are, would be pretty stupid if they weren't. Other 'genres' like French films (well these are not official genres), UK films etc etc, they have their own style. Smaller production, but good production values. Usually more subtle, and it's not so much to your face action type of films. But they are different genres. Doesn't make the other one any worse or better. I like them all, if I like them. It's not because it's Hollywood, or Swedish or what ever.

And on the contrary too, non-Hollywood movies are made, and in big numbers too. They do get lot of time in our theaters too, because they are succesful in here. Some of these films would never be succesful in the US. So they don't even bother trying it. Just like the 'man without past' created some interest even in the US, but the fact is, Kaurismäki has made those kinds of films for years and years and years, and we are very familiar with them and even before this one he was considered as a legend and many of his cinematographical displays of our lives and the weird dialogues and most of all the lack of them are famous in here and there are many sayings that are known like 'Oh this is just like from Kaurismäki' if you'd enter a weird situaton where no one talks and it's just generally weird. But still common .

These movies are good for us, and there are lots of them. The thing is, they are nto succesful in the US because you guys are not into that kind of stuff. So you might get an idea that no one else is making films, which is of course pretty weird though

And hell yes that is seen as arrogant, because we know we have films all the time, it is you who don't get to see them . It's like the claim that no one else is making music. Or popular music. that's crap claim too, they might not be popular there. Some bands, some films, what ever the format is, have been usually extremely popular in their own countries and areas for years and years and years, and some of them break it in the US as well, and suddenly 'hey one foreigner made a film too' .

Get it?

	09-10-2004 04:41									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Alot of Italian food is Italian-American food. Alot of Mexican food is Tex-Mex so no worries there. A good steak or Burger is best though, washed down with Canadian Beer, and a side of french fries. So Im indulging in three cultures every meal.

You see America has wormed its way into those to, we are evil bastards.

	09-10-2004 04:44									#204
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We have a place here that bills itself as Cal-Mex here. Very good. Lots of real Mexican food too, and I don't mean Tex-Mex or something tailored ot american tastes, same goes for Asian foods... I think it depends on where you live.

Still....

Resistance is Futile. You WILL be assimilated.

So grin and bare it.

It's a small world afterall.

	09-10-2004 04:45									#205
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SuperCitizen will be assimilated by the American onslaught! Your cultural distinctiveness will be added to our own! You will adapt to service us!

	09-10-2004 04:50									#206
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"Precisely. For example, from what I can tell, most Finns know English rather well (NB: I know that you aren't Finnish). They watch some American TV. They watch American movies. They participate in the English-dominated Internet to a mind-boggling degree. But do we honestly believe that US culture has much impact on the Finnish culture? I suggest that the impact is a lot more limited than some would have us believe."

This is a good argument and I would agree. This would trash my first rant in this thread pretty good and I apologize for it again. I just got irritated by this stereotype that I have in my mind of flag wavers calling my penis small .

I think what we are really talking about is entertainment business. Yes, the American entertainment business and it's impact in entertainment in here is the single biggest one. But it's not the ONLY one . And when people say that you have nothing of your own all you do is watch our stuff, well that's offensive kind of, because we do have our own stuff and lots of other peoples stuff too. Most of those people naturally have never been in here too,so that's why it is offensive. It creates a situation where people would think we have to bend over and go to our knees and thank everyone for the gifts and pleasures Hollywood has brought to us, as if it's the be all and end all of every single movie we see and like.

	09-10-2004 04:50									#207
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DD, what are you talking about. I am American. It just doesnt' say so in my passport.

	09-10-2004 04:52									#208
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See! We always win out in the end!

	09-10-2004 04:54									#209
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quote: And when people say that you have nothing of your own all you do is watch our stuff, well that's offensive kind of, because we do have our own stuff and lots of other peoples stuff too. Most of those people naturally have never been in here too,so that's why it is offensive.

Hey, no American (that I can remember) has pushed that line in this thread. That's Chirac's and Oncle Boris' line of argument.

	09-10-2004 04:56									#210
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I know. And I said some of you will never get it. I didn't mean anyone in this thread, but in general. But I HAVE countered that claim before, but granted not in this thread.