09-10-2004 01:32									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris A point that people tend to forget in this thread is that America is always pushing forward to make culture a consumer product like everything else, so that it can be included in trade agreements like the FTAA, or that organizations like the WTC can regulate it. Many people in the world are happy to trade with the US, but when it comes to culture they are reluctant to treat it as a consumer good, with reason. Of course most Americans, not being on the receiving end of the cultural steamroller can't seem to understand this. I personnally expect opposition in America to stir up the day Chinese culture starts to spread seriously (that is, if it's not absorbed by capitalism beforehand).

Crouching tiger was a Chinese film and I would love to see more of the same head our way. We will watch the chinese stuff we like and not watch the chinese stuff we dislike.

	09-10-2004 01:34									#152
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's the same problem that independent filmakers face in all countries. But if your stuff is good, it gets shown. When you say "truly Canadian", I interpret it to mean "it sucks, and nobody wants to watch it, but we've got to support it anyway, because it's Canadian."

Well my intent was to say that Canadian movies made for a Canadian public just don't have the budget, actors and advertising whoomph to make it to America. Those who do are probably co-productions.

Of course I won't comment on your pitiful troll in the second section of this paragraph. According to you (you have not dared name Canadian movies you know of) Canada makes one good film every three years? Blissful ignorance...

quote: Good stuff gets shown here, whether there are subtitles on it or not.

subtitles are a major hindrance to the commercial viability of a movie.

quote: There are lots of arthouse cinemas (even in a multiplex format, like Landmark Cinemas) and it makes no sense for them to not show as good of stuff as they can.

Of course they do, but they amount to a ridiculously low proportion of the market. Again, what is the market share of American movies?

What are you trying to say anyway? Are you claiming that the movie market is super free one, and that movie majors don't control it with big bucks and vertical integration? That foreign movies get 3% of the market because of their inherent lower quality? If so you desserve a big and a course on mediatic concentration.

	09-10-2004 01:36									#153
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See my DanS regarding Cirque de Soleil. Good Quebecois art is shown and appreciated in the US. I bet Quebec has 97% or whatever of the US first-run circus market.

Last edited by DanS on 09-10-2004 at 01:43

	09-10-2004 01:48									#154
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First I'd like to point that I'm not here to specifically defend Quebecois culture or whine about its lack of diffusion - I'm merely using it as an example because obviously I know more about it.

Yes, the Cirque du Soleil is successfull, but the market it is operating in is nowhere near like the musical or film industries. They do quite impressive stuff indeed, but I suppose that it is a result of them operating in a market that isn't so clustered. And above all there is no language barrier in their shows.

My idea is that foreign films could enjoy the same kind of success if they weren't blocked by the majors.

	09-10-2004 01:48									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well my intent was to say that Canadian movies made for a Canadian public just don't have the budget, actors and advertising whoomph to make it to America. Those who do are probably co-productions.

Actors? That is completely at odds with your entire stated objective! How is an inability to hire expensive Hollywood actors somehow an excuse for not making movies that have less Hollywood influence? The only roles the budget is going to play is actor expenses, special effect expenses, and advertising expenses. Why not just have something like government advertising of domestic movies then? Do you really think that would change peoples movie viewing habits? For some reason government intervention always chooses instead to ban or slap special tarriffs on imported films. This tells me even they don't believe your arguments as to why their domestic movies are not competive.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Of course I won't comment on your pitiful troll in the second section of this paragraph. According to you (you have not dared name Canadian movies you know of) Canada makes one good film every three years? Blissful ignorance... subtitles are a major hindrance to the commercial viability of a movie. Of course they do, but they amount to a ridiculously low proportion of the market. Again, what is the market share of American movies? What are you trying to say anyway? Are you claiming that the movie market is super free one, and that movie majors don't control it with big bucks and vertical integration? That foreign movies get 3% of the market because of their inherent lower quality? If so you desserve a big and a course on mediatic concentration.

The market is indeed not only a free one but it becomes easier and easier every year for small players to hit it big.

I think the foreign movies get 3% because they try to be everything that the US films are not and that turns out to be poor marketing logic.

	09-10-2004 01:51									#156
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quote: Yes, the Cirque du Soleil is successfull, but the market it is operating in is nowhere near like the musical or film industries.

I disagree. It's a huge business which owns Las Vegas. Just ask Dissident. It has 3 or 4 shows running all the time, at least 2 times a day. $50 - $100 a ticket. Packed showings.

Also, I think you have an inflated view of the market for movies. It's not that large.

	09-10-2004 01:51									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And the BS continues. In many places in the world, American music and films outrageously dominate local art. In Quebec alone, American films have over 80% market share. Last year local film productors were happy to achieve a 9% market share, up from 7% last year.

Which just goes to show that even in Quebec, people prefer American music and films to local ones. So?

	09-10-2004 01:52									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris When was the last time that a Finnish movie played in a theater near you? A French one? A Russian one?

Ah, so you're just complaining that because so few people want what you want that no one even bothers to supply, others must be compelled to purchase what you want in order to create enough demand for it to be economical.

	09-10-2004 01:54									#159
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As someone who has lived in both countries, and currently lives in Canada, and can say that Canada doesn't produce many good homegrown movies.

It produces (ie, films) a ton of Hollywood ones, but the truly "Canadian" ones usually suck. And I watch a lot of indy movies. There are some OK ones, but they usually try too hard to be "Canadian".

Paranoid Canadians and their identity crisis...

	09-10-2004 01:56									#160
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Decent and what audiences like to see are two different things.

Now who's the cultural imperialist?

Why the hell are your personal standards of quality right, and everyone else's wrong?

	09-10-2004 01:56									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident this is all much ado about nothing. when the american economy totally collapses, none of this will mean ****. I predict that will happen in about 20 to 30 years. America will no longer be a dominant superpower. mark my words. Consequently, their culture will no longer dominate.

why do you give us so long?

	09-10-2004 02:00									#162
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quote: That's a reflection of reality. There are two Americas. The coastal urban centres with a "progressive" culture and interior with "traditional" culture.

I have heard you spout this idiotic myth based on nothing many a time, what exactly is its origin?

	09-10-2004 02:01									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris so when people are born they adopt a culture from scratch? One may be left wondering why there aren't more Christians in Japan and more Buddhists in America.

Just as you have observed someone who is a fundie muslim born in SA would probably have been a fundie christian if born in Texas, people will choose whatever is convenient for their environment when faced with cultural choices between equivalent possibilities. They are still making individual choices however. That is why not everybody is a fundie in either Texas or SA.

Not so long ago culture was dictated by the governments and that had been the case for thousands of years. Now that such governance is increasingly rare and altogether rejected we are seeing massive cultural changes all over the world as indivduals reject long standing traditions which they find personally objectionable or even just inconvenient.

The apparent determism of culture by environment is illusionary. At best it will tilt local choices towards one of a number of equivalently attractive choices.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I never said it should dictate choices, I said that it should work towards ensuring that a choice can be made.

Every government scheme I've seen for 'ensuring' such 'choice' has involved discouraging consumption of cultural products that the government doesn't like.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Hello! there some things as laws, Constitutions and civil charters (in democratic countries at least) that try to outline the values and principles that should underly the governing of a State.

Yes.

	09-10-2004 02:04									#164
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quote: why do you give us so long?

Because he's a vacillating troll that sways from one idiotic position to another (wait about 5 days and he'll tell us something different). Rather like the Quebecois.

	09-10-2004 02:06									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Who's faut is if the Vietnamese prefer American products over their own? Hell we used to bomb their cities and now they buy our ****. Idiot

Actually they run a 3.23 billion dollar trade surplus with the US.

	09-10-2004 02:06									#166
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: why do you give us so long? Because he's a vacillating troll that sways from one idiotic position to another (wait about 5 days and he'll tell us something different). Rather like the Quebecois.

This is untrue. The Quebecois overwhelmingly choose to view US films over alternatives year after year.

	09-10-2004 02:07									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Actually they run a 3.23 billion dollar trade surplus with the US.

But I wonder if any of them use pirated american cultural products?

	09-10-2004 02:08									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Which just goes to show that even in Quebec, people prefer American music and films to local ones. So?

An annoying French sub-culture might die! Don't you realize what a tragedy that would be to the world!

	09-10-2004 02:09									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo But I wonder if any of them use pirated american cultural products?

generally pirated items get exported back to the US, its probably not listed in the US government trade data.

	09-10-2004 02:09									#170
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quote: Don't you realize what a tragedy that would be to the world!

	09-10-2004 02:09									#171
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@ Dino.

Chiraq said some silly things. Whatever. Our moron says sillier things all the damned time. Theirs is entitled to say a few too.

-Arrian

	09-10-2004 02:10									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo The Quebecois overwhelmingly choose to view US films over alternatives year after year.

And they whine about US cultural dominance, are for seperatism yet send represntatives to Parliament, etc.

	09-10-2004 02:11									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian @ Dino. Chiraq said some silly things. Whatever. Our moron says sillier things all the damned time. Theirs is entitled to say a few too. -Arrian

Yes, but our idiot isn't our Pre...

never mind

	09-10-2004 02:13									#174
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Doesn't France have more important things to do, like devising ways to violate sanctions?

	09-10-2004 02:14									#175
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quote: An annoying French sub-culture might die! Don't you realize what a tragedy that would be to the world!

This just demonstrates how ridiculous this crap is. Even some of the most marginalized language groups in the US still continue on despite the great choking sound of American culture. Some of my in-laws can still speak Cajun. Cajun music is still played a lot on stations in Louisiana, etc.

This even leaves aside my old neighbors, the Amish, who only speak English as a second language after centuries in the US.

	09-10-2004 02:16									#176
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what do Amish people speak?

	09-10-2004 02:17									#177
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Pennsylvania Dutch, which as far as my family can tell is a dialect of German.

	09-10-2004 02:21									#178
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Right, since the "Dutch" in PA Dutch is really Deutsche.

-Arrian

	09-10-2004 02:21									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Why the hell are your personal standards of quality right, and everyone else's wrong?

Because I'm smarter than you.

	09-10-2004 02:22									#180
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: why do you give us so long? Because he's a vacillating troll that sways from one idiotic position to another (wait about 5 days and he'll tell us something different). Rather like the Quebecois.

Esp considering that he was replying to a post by Dissident!

BTW where is it that I flipflopped?