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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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quote:
No offense, Imran, but your quote is irrelevant, for two reasons:
1) The polls asked people if they "agreed with the president." They didn't asked if people knew and understood the policies, nor did they ask if they favored those policies over others. Especially post-9/11, asking people if they "agree with teh president" is going to elicit an artificially high number of "yes" responses.
2) Second, asking if people favor "regulation" will always (since Reagan, anyway) elicit al artificially high number of "no" responses. But ask them about specific regulations, and people tend to be in favor of them.
In these polls, The People always come off like Joseph II in Amadeus complaining that a Mozart composition has "too many notes." When pressed on the question of which notes to get rid of, they're stumped. It's the same with regulation. |
You keep saying this but provide no contrary polls. And the question on partial privatization and health care seemed not to ask if they 'agreed with the President'. In fact of the quoted questions only ONE (taxes) asked if there was agreement with the President.
quote:
Don't try to turn this into a victory. Buchanan was right and you commited a gross but ironic mistake when you assumed that the alleged 'perversion' was impossible because it was about foreign policy.
Buchanan's point is that there are no true conservatives anymore because neocons are campaigning on foreign issues. |
I'm turning it into a victory because I was right. You and ZKribbler said neo-cons were the ones spending all the money on domestic programs (ie, enlarging the federal government). Now that you have lost the battle, you try to bring spin what Buchanan may have said. There is no evidence to suggest that Buchanan said the neo-cons are campaigning on foriegn issues so they aren't true conservatives, unless you claim you've read the book. It seems out of character with what ZKrib said which is Buchanan said that neo-cons were spending too much money domestically  .
Maybe you two should sort it out?
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Quoted Gallup poll questions:
quote:
"Do you think the tax cuts recently signed into law by George W. Bush were -- a good idea (or) a bad idea -- at this time?"
"Which of the following approaches for providing health care in the United States would you prefer -- replacing the current health care system with a new government-run health care system, or maintaining the current system based mostly on private health insurance?"
"A proposal has been made that would allow people to put a portion of their Social Security payroll taxes into personal retirement accounts that would be invested in private stocks and bonds. Do you favor or oppose this proposal?"
"In general, do you think there is too much, too little or about the right amount of government regulation of business and industry?," |
Sorry Rufus, but it wasn't a referendum on the President, but specific questions about policy. |
No, it's about what they were asked. The first question, for example, is still a basic "do you support the President" question. But imagine if the first question were asked this way:
"Do you think the President's decision to cut taxes without cutting federal spending -- indeed, while increasing Federal spending -- was a good idea or a bad idea at this time?"
or this way...
"After the recent balanced budgets submitted to congress by President Clinton, do you think President Bush's idea of returning to unbalanced budgets and running a deficit is a good idea or a bad idea at this time?"
Do you really think you'd get the same level of support for the prez with such questions?
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:20
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quote:
"Do you think the President's decision to cut taxes without cutting federal spending -- indeed, while increasing Federal spending -- was a good idea or a bad idea at this time?"
or this way...
"After the recent balanced budgets submitted to congress by President Clinton, do you think President Bush's idea of returning to unbalanced budgets and running a deficit is a good idea or a bad idea at this time?"
Do you really think you'd get the same level of support for the prez with such questions? |
Seeing as how the general policy question (ie, everything except the first one... I don't know why you keep harping on the first one, when I said that wasn't what I was focusing on... perhaps because it is the only one that makes your point?) are either or questions which are neutral and fair, I think they are very representative of the population.
Still haven't provided counter polls.
quote:
Neo-cons are doing stuff outside of the country, which pleases a certain traditionaly conservative crowd.
It also happens that they're doing stuff in America that doesn't seem to be in touch with traditional conservatism.
Still, they get the traditionally conservative vote. My spin on this is that terrorism has become a major issue for Americans, and thus foreign policy is overshadowing domestic mistakes. |
The original claim made was that Buchanan was whining that neo-conservatives were increasing domestic spending when neo-conservativism has nothing to do with domestic policy.
People can act like neo-conservatives in foriegn policy, but that doesn't mean they are acting under that moniker in domestic policy. Like a person can act like a liberal in the American domestic policy but that doesn't mean he has to act like a liberal in foreign policy. Seeing as neo-conservativism does not have a domestic component, a person who is a neo-con in foriegn policy cannot be labeled with the same term in his domestic policies.
For example there are Democrats who are Neo-conservatives. I don't think most would consider Scoop Jackson (former Democratic Senator) to be in favor of Bush's current policies.
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Drachasor
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It is a simple fact that the Bush administration has engaged in a campaign of lies and deceptions against the American people.
Does Kerry lie too? Yes. Does Kerry lie as much? Not by a long shot. Are Kerry's lies nearly as egregious as Bush's? Generally, not by a long shot.
Kerry is clearly the more honest and upstanding candidate in terms of honesty. He is also the more fiscally responsible candidate, as neutral groups have found his math to add up on his health care proposal for instance (which is not government-run healthcare). He is likewise the candidate that will be tougher on terror because he will truly work with our allies and build strong coalitions. You need the entire world acting together as much as possible to fight terrorism, and Bush isn't interested in that. On every major issue, Kerry has a stronger position than Bush does, so the Bush team is forced to use negative appellations and lies against Kerry.
When you consider that the Bush administration had information that Al Qaeda was planning an attack (a memo entitled "Bin Laden intent on attack within the U.S." that Rice claimed didn't say anything about an internal attack); When you consider that Bush could have looked into Iraq's WMD situation carefully by using the inspectors but didn't; When you consider that Bush wildly spends money and doesn't cut a dang thing nor can he veto *anything*; When you consider that they lie a lot more than Kerry (go add up the lies on Factcheck.org); When you consider that they regularly totally distort what their opponents say; When you consider that they aggressively attack anyone that disagrees with them, even compromising secret agent security to do so; When you consider that they refuse to listen to advice from those that disagree with them; When you consider that we have a President that is woefully ignorant of the world, not even knowing that Sweden is not Switzerland; When you consider that they ignored the advice and help of the former administration, an administration that knew an attack was coming; When you consider that they have alienated our long-term allies for a quagmire in the middle-east and no gain; When you consider they are seemingly incapable of admitting error; When you consider that when faced with facts that they are in the wrong, they take no steps to alter how they are handling the situation; When you consider they have no qualms about making a sky-rocketing deficiet; When you consider they promise things like the ability to invest some of your social security money, but there is no money to fund such a change; When you consider they are totally disconnected from the American worker; When you consider that they freely use the term "unpatriotic" against those they disagree with; When you consider they use 9/11 for political ends; And when you consider that every Super-power of the past fell when they decided they no longer needed the aid and help of their allies...
When you consider all this, only someone woefully ignorant of what is going on or woefully misguiding into thinking that honesty, integrity, and basic decency towards others doesn't matter that much would vote for Bush.
he media has failed us, my friends, for they refuse to call people on their lies, painting a picture that Bush and Kerry are equally honest. They have failed is in forgetting that they have a responsibility to let people know the truth. They have failed us in forgetting that most Americans believe what they see on T.V. and making no effort to make what they show take into account the profound affect they have on the American people. They have failed us, and because of that a President that should be below 40% in the polls (and likely lower) has a fighting chance of winning.
So, hard-core Bush supporters, continue with your distortions and your support of a President that freely and willingly lies. Just know that if you ever complain about how you can't trust politicians, then you have helped and supported the problem. Everyone else needs to look at the big picture of Bush, the media, and the American people, and see just how much room for improvement there is.
-Drachasor
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19-10-2004 09:50
Just like "libertarian" or "Jew" was an insult in Nazi Germany... idiots prefer labels to fabric, as it were. 
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