19-10-2004 17:16									#91
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His vote was a protest vote against funding the reconstruction through a grant rather than a loan. Yes, there's absolutely nothing complicated about this.

Republican spin about him "not supporting the troops" is horseshit.

	19-10-2004 17:19									#92
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Again, it is how he voted . I don't see what is very complicated about that at all. He went on the record as against supporting the troops...period. Anything else is just spin.

Fact Check says you are wrong.

http://www.factcheck.org/article209.html

If we were just looking at how Kerry voted two decades ago then you'd be right but when you look at the last 10 years he has a great record of supporting military spending. Plus he has always pushed for more pay and medical benifets for troops.

Bush's ads also fails to mention that Kerry voted for Pentagon money bills in 16 of his 19 years. Those three years (1990, 1994, 1996) where he voted to cut spending were post cold war years where most of the Republicans supported cuts as well.

If you want to ignore most of the record then I guess we can say the Bush ads are right but I like to look at the whole picture. I think most intelligent people want to look at the whole picture too.

	19-10-2004 17:26									#93
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Here's another great Fact Check article on how Bush's claims that Kerry voted against defense bills are total lies.

http://www.factcheck.org/article177.html

Some of you people seem to support just about anything Bush says without bothering to check the facts.

	19-10-2004 17:46									#94
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Factcheck.org

	19-10-2004 17:47									#95
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Liberal, Socialist and Commie are all complimentary terms, meaning you are a nice generous person. Conservative means you are selfish and unkind.

	19-10-2004 18:03									#96
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I wouldn't say that at all. They are simply espousing different ideals.

	19-10-2004 18:13									#97
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True, nice generous ideas in one case and selfish unkind ones in the other.

	19-10-2004 18:14									#98
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I'm not being very serious, but I would probably be offended if someone said I was conservative or Conservative or something.

	19-10-2004 18:32									#99
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Liberal really is a dirty word in my neck of the woods and the liberals have no one to blame for that but themselves. Even the liberals acknowledge this fact when they now insist on being called "Progressives" instead of liberals.

Then again I must now call myself a Centrist because "moderate" has come to mean wishy-washy. In any event I’m a big believer in the third way.

	19-10-2004 18:38									#100
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Well, if the only result of my lengthy post was getting people to go to factcheck.org, then I consider it a success.

Factcheck.org

-Drachasor

	19-10-2004 18:41									#101
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I always like this site (think I probably got it here): http://www.electoral-vote.com/

Shows Kerry at 284 electoral votes.

quote: Kerry keeps moving up in the electoral college. A new Survey USA poll shows he has now inched ahead of Bush in Florida, although his 1% lead means the state is still a statistical tie. Nevertheless, we now show Kerry with more than the critical 270 votes in the electoral college to win. Perhaps more signficant, though, is the fact that in states where Kerry's lead is at least 5%, he has 228 electoral votes. In states where Bush's lead is at least 5%, he has 183 electoral votes. Clearly the race is still wide open.

	19-10-2004 18:50									#102
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I'm a proud liberal.

	19-10-2004 19:03									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Well, if the only result of my lengthy post was getting people to go to factcheck.org, then I consider it a success. Factcheck.org -Drachasor

I've been going there since I heard about it on an NPR report last June. Besides, even Vice Prez Cheney wanted people to go to Factcheck though if I had his record I would try to steer people away from Factcheck.

	19-10-2004 19:08									#104
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This is a funny thread. We have a bunch of "proud" liberals complaining that Kerry is being called a liberal, when in fact Kerry is as liberal as the sky is blue.

It makes me think that calling Kerry liberal (i.e., telling the unvarnished truth) is very effective.

	19-10-2004 19:12									#105
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Well it's misleading, I wish Kerry WERE more liberal.

	19-10-2004 19:14									#106
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I read factcheck.org regularly. I for the life of me can't understand how anyone that supposedly reads it could say that one lies more than the other or with greater effect/impact as the whoppers have been balanced in my book.

Course I'm not a punch drinking liberal. Woot! Woot!

Damn commie libs.

	19-10-2004 19:21									#107
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Kerry's a lying right wing slimebag who's much too heavily influenced by the big spending corportations and political lobbies, but he's not quite as bad as Bush.

	19-10-2004 19:38									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I read factcheck.org regularly. I for the life of me can't understand how anyone that supposedly reads it could say that one lies more than the other or with greater effect/impact as the whoppers have been balanced in my book.

I wanted to test your theory so I went to factcheck.org and I totalled up all the articles from the end of Aug. until know. I divided them into major and minor mistakes and attributed the mistakes to either Bush, Kerry, a neutral third party. I considered a major lie/mistake to be something like Bush's claim that Kerry wants to nationalize health care while a minor lie/mistake would be Kerry's claim that the cost of the Iraq war was now $200 billion (Its currently only $120 billion but their is a $87 billion bill which will be introduced at the end of Nov). If the article high lighted mistakes lies/mistakes by both parties then I gave a point to each party. The results according to factcheck.org?

Bush lied or was mistaken 12 times since the end of Aug with 7 of those lies/mistakes being major. Kerry lied or was mistaken 7 times with one being major (the claim that Bush wants to cut social security). There were four neutral articles.

I'd say it's pretty clear to anyone who wants to check the facts that Bush not only lies more then Kerry but he tells bigger lies to boot.

	19-10-2004 20:09									#109
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Oerdin .

That's the main thing to take away. Kerry may tell some small lies, but Bush tells some whoppers!

	19-10-2004 20:17									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I read factcheck.org regularly. I for the life of me can't understand how anyone that supposedly reads it could say that one lies more than the other or with greater effect/impact as the whoppers have been balanced in my book. Course I'm not a punch drinking liberal. Woot! Woot! Damn commie libs.

Kerry's lies very often are at the heart true, but with the wrong numbers. Bush often entirely misconstrues and misrepresents arguements and his opponent's stances. Bush will take quotes, remove the context, add his own, and then act like he is quoting Kerry.

Lastly, you've already seen how I have counted up the lies and found Bush lying more. I shall do it again though, and add two months, so this will go July to today. The Net, btw, is the number of Bush lies more than Kerry lies.

Kerry Falsely Claims Bush Plans To Cut Social Security Benefits (Kerry 1) Net: -1

Just How Many Bills Has Kerry Passed? (Bush 1, Kerry 1) Net: 0

New And Recycled Distortions At Final Presidential Debate (Bush 7, Kerry 7) Net: 0

Kerry's Tax Ad: Literally Accurate, But Misleading (Kerry 1) Net: -1

Pro-Bush Puffery on Economy, Medicare (Bush 2) Net: 2

Distortions Galore at Second Presidential Debate (Bush 7, Kerry 6) Net: 1

Cheney & Edwards Mangle Facts (Bush 9, Kerry 4) Net: 5

Bush Mischaracterizes Kerry's Health Plan (Bush 3) Net: 3

Distortions and Misstatements At First Presidential Debate (Bush 7, Kerry 6) Net: 1

Kerry Ad Falsely Accuses Cheney on Halliburton (Kerry 3) Net: -3

Bush Ad Twists Kerry's Words on Iraq (Bush 7) Net: 7

GOP Website Uses Misleading Kerry Quote On Abortion (Bush 1) Net: 1

Are Bush and Cheney "Small Businesses?" Their Ad Counts Them As Such (Bush 1) Net: 1

Misinforming Voters From The Stump (Bush 3, Kerry 3) Net: 0

Kerry & Bush Duel Over Medicare Premiums - Who's To Blame For The 17% Increase? (Bush 3, Kerry 1) Net: 2

Kerry Exaggerates Cost of War in Iraq (Kerry 1) Net: -1

Update on Kerry's "Shrinking Middle Class" -- Still Shrinking in 2003 (Argueable: Kerry 1) Net: -1

Bush Still Fudging the Numbers on Kerry's Tax Votes (Bush 4) Net: 4

Bush Nails Kerry's Poor Attendance at Intelligence Committee Hearings (Bush 2, Kerry 2) Net: 0

Kerry's Dubious Economics (Kerry 2) Net: -2

Kerry Blames Corporate Tax Code for Shipping Jobs Overseas (Kerry 2) Net: -2

Bush Ad Faults Kerry's "Family Priorities" (Bush 2) Net: 2

Bush Ad Claims Kerry Voted Against "Protections for Pregnant Women" (Bush 3) Net: 3

Small Kerry Boast Brings Big Bush Attack (Bush 3, Kerry 1) Net: 2

Kerry: 42

Bush: 65

Total Net: 23

So, in short, Bush lies a lot more than Kerry does.

This, naturally, doesn't include the vast amounts of misleading statements that have otherwise been made, such as Bush's taking the "global test" phrase totally out of context, and similarly taking Kerry's goal to make terrorism a nuisance out of context. Likewise there are many other foibles that the current administration has made.

Of course, it also doesn't include that fact that Bush's economic plan is totally bankrupt (I challenge anyone to defend it), and that he refuses to recognize job market problems, or admit that he planned poorly for Iraq and didn't give enough time to inspectors. I would note that McCain has criticised the administration quite harshly on the handling of the war in Iraq.

-Drachasor

	19-10-2004 20:20									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oerdin . That's the main thing to take away. Kerry may tell some small lies, but Bush tells some whoppers!

If you go in and look at the individual lies, then you get a similar result on Bush lying more.

I didn't seperate between major and minor though. Perhaps I need to go back and do that.

-Drachasor

	19-10-2004 20:28									#112
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is a funny thread. We have a bunch of "proud" liberals complaining that Kerry is being called a liberal, when in fact Kerry is as liberal as the sky is blue. It makes me think that calling Kerry liberal (i.e., telling the unvarnished truth) is very effective.

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?



I don't have a problem with others calling Kerry for what he is -- a liberal. For the thousandth time, my problem is that Bush is trying to turn "liberal" into a dirty, shameful word when liberals should be proud of the principle of liberalism.

	19-10-2004 20:29									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I wanted to test your theory so I went to factcheck.org and I totalled up all the articles from the end of Aug. until know. I divided them into major and minor mistakes and attributed the mistakes to either Bush, Kerry, a neutral third party. I considered a major lie/mistake to be something like Bush's claim that Kerry wants to nationalize health care while a minor lie/mistake would be Kerry's claim that the cost of the Iraq war was now $200 billion (Its currently only $120 billion but their is a $87 billion bill which will be introduced at the end of Nov). If the article high lighted mistakes lies/mistakes by both parties then I gave a point to each party. The results according to factcheck.org? Bush lied or was mistaken 12 times since the end of Aug with 7 of those lies/mistakes being major. Kerry lied or was mistaken 7 times with one being major (the claim that Bush wants to cut social security). There were four neutral articles. I'd say it's pretty clear to anyone who wants to check the facts that Bush not only lies more then Kerry but he tells bigger lies to boot.

	19-10-2004 20:34									#114
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I don't have a problem with others calling Kerry for what he is -- a liberal. For the thousandth time, my problem is that Bush is trying to turn "liberal" into a dirty, shameful word when liberals should be proud of the principle of liberalism.

To be fair, Kerry isn't terribly liberal.

Though I agree that using liberal as an insult is very annoying.

-Drachasor

	20-10-2004 10:48									#115
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So you admit defeat Imran?

	20-10-2004 11:09									#116
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I'm not being very serious, but I would probably be offended if someone said I was conservative or Conservative or something.

Isn't it annoying when no one pays attention?

If it helps, I think you'd make a fine Tory.

	20-10-2004 12:33									#117
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Of course, whenever good evidence is presented that Bush is much worse than Kerry, the pro-Bush people seem to vacate the thread.

-Drachasor

	20-10-2004 12:34									#118
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Bush is much worse at what, not being a liberal?

	20-10-2004 12:52									#119
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Bush is much worse at what, not being a liberal?

At being honest, at being fiscally responsible, at diplomacy, at representing the needs of the people against the needs of corporations, at listening to criticism, at understanding the problems the working class is having, and at many other things.

-Drachasor

	20-10-2004 12:56									#120
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You mean diplomacy like saying 'wrong war, wrong place, wrong time', but we'll get our allies more involved?