20-10-2004 15:33									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I seem to recall the EU & the USSR as being far larger weapons dealers to Saddam then the US. He used Soviet Tanks and French fighter planes and it was German chemical companies who sold him everything needed to make chemical weapons. However, people blame the US.

The French and Russians didn't then label him the biggest threat to world peace and try and make everyone invade to get rid of him.

It's the hypocricy that offends people more than the weapons sales. All arms manufacturing nations have sold to highly questionable regimes. We still do.

	20-10-2004 15:39									#152
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Germany is generally reluctant with sending, or permitting companies to send, weapons abroad. Hell, we have had (and still have) big discussions, if we should send tanks to Turkey, let alone regimes like former Iraq. If Germany did it in the 80's (which I can't confirm right now), it surely has been discussed both in the parliament and with our allies. Looks like none of them had any concerns. And fact is, throughout the 80's the West was rather friendly toward Saddam. Don't make me post Rumsfelds handshake for the 100th time.

	20-10-2004 15:45									#153
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quote: You mean it takes time, patience, and respect to make the Iraqis feel as if they don't have legitimate representatives

The Iraqi people don't need an American politician to tell them that their gov't is totally unreprentative. Something that Kerry hasn't said, BTW.

quote: and never will with the Yanks around?

When did he ever say or imply this?

quote: I wonder how Kerry makes Karzai feel?

Seeing as how he's not part of the coalition in Iraq, I don't see how that's relevant.

quote: He honestly thinks he can slag the war in Iraq as a bad idea and a huge mess, and then get others to send help? To what? Suicide, the way he tells it.

Pointing out mistakes in the process is the first step to correcting them.

quote: The only thing I see him doing is setting up an escape from Iraq. **** the people. **** democracy and the ME. Get us the **** out of there, right now. It makes me sick to think that Iraqis went through all that they went through, and that now in the last mile some panty waist from Mass is gonna throw them to the wolves.

Except, there's no evidence Kerry is planning on this, while Bob Novak, who has deep sources in the WH (you might remember him from leaking Plame's name), says that the Administration is planning on getting out of Iraq shortly after the election.

	20-10-2004 18:23									#154
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quote: Except, there's no evidence Kerry is planning on this

Of course, if we ignore the NPR interview where he pledged to vastly reduce troop levels there within 6 months of being elected after beating Bush over the head because there weren't enough troops there in his opinion then you'd be abso;utely correct.

	20-10-2004 18:24									#155
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Didn't he say there weren't enough troops immediately after the invation which is true, that doesn't mean that many are needed now.

	20-10-2004 18:31									#156
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Didn't he say there weren't enough troops immediately after the invation which is true, that doesn't mean that many are needed now.

It'd be if Kerry didn't openly contradict your defense of him.

Kerry: General Shinseki had the wisdom to say you're going to need several hundred thousand troops to win the peace. We still seem to be trying to win the peace and I a) don't see that changing if Kerry wins & b) don't see any evidence that there would be a groundswell of new troops from other countries to replace ours in the event of a Kerry win. So yes there is evidence that he's planning on throwing the Iraqis to the wolves.

	20-10-2004 18:33									#157
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OK, fair enough, so it's another issue where his policy is the same as Bushes. Therefore irrelevant to choosing between them.

(Although I think Kerry's plan is to get other coutries to commit replacement troops whereas Bush can't possibly do that 'cause they all hate him).

	20-10-2004 18:34									#158
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quote: Does anybody here think that Kerry isn't a liberal?

Yes. Liberals are supposed to be rightists.

	20-10-2004 18:36									#159
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH OK, fair enough, so it's another issue where his policy is the same as Bushes. Therefore irrelevant to choosing between them.

I don't really believe Ramo so that's open to debate at this point.

quote: (Although I think Kerry's plan is to get other coutries to commit replacement troops whereas Bush can't possibly do that 'cause they all hate him).

I ... don't see any evidence that there would be a groundswell of new troops from other countries to replace ours in the event of a Kerry win.

	20-10-2004 18:38									#160
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Maybe. I just don't see it improving with Kerry. The guy is a disaster that can be seen coming.

If you're right, and Kerry is a disaster, then all we've done is exchange one disaster for another. We're still in the same place we were before. Therefore we have nothing to lose by electing Kerry, cuz it's always possible he minght not be a disaster. If that's the case, then we're better off than before. Cuz let's face it, Bush's presidency has been an unmitigated disaster.

	20-10-2004 18:41									#161
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Worst. President. Ever.

	20-10-2004 18:43									#162
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't see any evidence that there would be a groundswell of new troops from other countries to replace ours in the event of a Kerry win.

Frankly it would be fun to watch if Kerry wins to see if all the world leaders, who are abusing Bush for not getting more concensus from them before acting, will support Kerry by actually helping him. Or will they ignore him as well... An anit Bush/American stance is a real crowd pleaser right now for many foreign politicians.

If Kerry is president, they will have to show their true colors... are they really Anti Bush, or Anti American. Bush has been a great whipping boy for them... But will it really change much with Kerry in place. It will be interesting to see if Kerry wins.

	20-10-2004 18:47									#163
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Not only is it a crowd pleaser but as he or his team have publically tried to belittle them and make them look stupid there's no way they could act positively towards Bush without losing their own credibility with their electorates. That's just retarded.

Things weren't hugely different policy wise under Clinton but at least he was smart enough to keep disagreements private so that everyone could keep face, and the discussions would continue - he got more concessions that way. Bush Senior was a lot better at international relations as well.

No-one in my lifetime has been as bad as Bush. (at maintaining good relations with allies)

	20-10-2004 18:48									#164
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It makes me sick to think that Iraqis went through all that they went through, and that now in the last mile some panty waist from Mass is gonna throw them to the wolves.

Get your head on right -- Kerry's plan is NOT to simply give up on the Iraqis. He wants to fix the mistakes that were made by the Bush administration, in Iraq.

	20-10-2004 18:55									#165
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Worst. President. Ever.

No. I think that title is still held by Andrew Johnson.

	20-10-2004 18:59									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Liberal really is a dirty word in my neck of the woods and the liberals have no one to blame for that but themselves. Even the liberals acknowledge this fact when they now insist on being called "Progressives" instead of liberals.

Funny. Where I'm from, "liberal" is a friendly term for non-conservative rightwingers, whereas "progressive" is a now-little used term for commies and their ilk.

	20-10-2004 19:14									#167
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I ... don't see any evidence that there would be a groundswell of new troops from other countries to replace ours in the event of a Kerry win.

I don't see it either, but it's a hell more likely than the same to happen with Bush still in charge. In the present situation, sending troops would be seen as saying Bush was right.

	20-10-2004 19:15									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I know Bush isn't a conservative. That man spends like a crack addict who broke out of rehab.

Oerdin, in another thread, you asked whether I had become unreasonable. Now I have two ask the same question of you?

	20-10-2004 19:16									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oerdin, in another thread, you asked whether I had become unreasonable. Now I have two ask the same question of you?

four words for you Ned:


highest deficit in history

	20-10-2004 19:16									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Liberal really is a dirty word in my neck of the woods and the liberals have no one to blame for that but themselves. Even the liberals acknowledge this fact when they now insist on being called "Progressives" instead of liberals.

Which pisses us real progressives off. Now we have to go find another label.

Liberals have no one to blame but themselves. They should have fought back, instead of letting conservatives tar and feather them for twenty years.

	20-10-2004 19:20									#171
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Being associated with the democratic left should be an improvement for commies.

	20-10-2004 19:31									#172
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Mr. Fun, and you really a Liberal?

Agree or disagree:


1) Wealth is evil; accumulation of wealth in the hands of a few is per se cruel; the primary purpose of government is to foster "social equality."

2) The source of wealth is private property; property rights must be undermined or abolished by

a heavy progressive income tax;

a confiscatory estate tax;

regulation of rents and profits; and

concentration of means of production in the government.

3) Religion is a means for the wealthy to keep the masses in place and must be abolished or confined. Restraints on personal behavior that are opposed by religion are permitted.

4) The Family is antithetical to the freedom of women; laws must degrade the authority of men in the family and permit women to raise children independent of a family.

	20-10-2004 19:36									#173
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The American idea of "liberalism" is getting weirder and weirder ...

	20-10-2004 19:37									#174
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Ned I think you've got Liberal and Socialist confused

	20-10-2004 19:37									#175
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To answer negative to all those questions you'd have to be more extreme than most communists not just a liberal.

	20-10-2004 19:46									#176
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No. I think that title is still held by Andrew Johnson.

Yeah, he was a *****. I still think that if impeachment succeeded, today, we'd see it as justified. Though they should have got him for bribery (pardoning former Confederate officers so that he could be friends with them and invited to all the big Southern events and such)... it ain't money exchanging hands, but it doesn't mean it isn't a bribe.

	20-10-2004 19:50									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Being associated with the democratic left should be an improvement for commies.

Maybe if they were actually on the left, instead of only slightly less far to the right as the Republicans.

	20-10-2004 19:52									#178
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The Democrats are a far right party in European terms.

	20-10-2004 20:09									#179
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quote: Originally posted by the_ceebs Ned I think you've got Liberal and Socialist confused

Really. You should listen to the liberals in the US. Just yesterday Gore said something to the effect that concentration of wealth in the hands of the few is cruel. Progressive tax? Liberals favor. Estate tax - the higher the better. Rent control? Why yes! Profit control: a must. What else can one call the effort to control drug prices.

Liberals in the US favor all of the list.

But you would call them socialists. I am not disagreeing.

	20-10-2004 20:11									#180
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It'd be nice if they were. Sadly they are much too right wing.