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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Maybe. I just don't see it improving with Kerry. The guy is a disaster that can be seen coming.
He honestly thinks he can slag the war in Iraq as a bad idea and a huge mess, and then get others to send help? To what? Suicide, the way he tells it.
The only thing I see him doing is setting up an escape from Iraq. **** the people. **** democracy and the ME. Get us the **** out of there, right now.
It makes me sick to think that Iraqis went through all that they went through, and that now in the last mile some panty waist from Mass is gonna throw them to the wolves. |
NYE, my view of Canada just went up ten pegs! Bravo, good post.
Somehow, someway, we have got to improve relations between our countries. It would be nice if we were really allies in fact, rather than in name.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Germany is generally reluctant with sending, or permitting companies to send, weapons abroad. Hell, we have had (and still have) big discussions, if we should send tanks to Turkey, let alone regimes like former Iraq. If Germany did it in the 80's (which I can't confirm right now), it surely has been discussed both in the parliament and with our allies. Looks like none of them had any concerns. And fact is, throughout the 80's the West was rather friendly toward Saddam. Don't make me post Rumsfelds handshake for the 100th time. |
Given Germany's history, I for one do not expect them to help out with troops. However, training of Iraqis and financial support would be more than welcome. Germany, after all, has just as must a stake in the success of Iraq as the rest of the world.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Given Germany's history, I for one do not expect them to help out with troops. However, training of Iraqis and financial support would be more than welcome. Germany, after all, has just as must a stake in the success of Iraq as the rest of the world. |
Our history does not hold us back to send troops to Kosovo and Afghanistan. And we are already training Iraqi police since about a year. The news is that old, I can't even dig out a link anymore. However we do it at home and not in the mess you created.
What concerns financial support, it is not going to happen, at least under Bush, who is de facto persona non grata in most of Europe (and the rest of the world as well). You did it unilaterally, you wiped away warnings about both costs and political consequences in an arrogant and insulting way, now you pay for it. For all of it. America hasn't yet paid nearly enough. It is the only language it understands.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
If Kerry is president, they will have to show their true colors... are they really Anti Bush, or Anti American. Bush has been a great whipping boy for them... But will it really change much with Kerry in place. It will be interesting to see if Kerry wins. |
If you ever go or read anything about other countries, then you would know that it is anti-bushism that is really popular. Probably because he is a warmongering jerk in the international arena.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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Well, the main reason that Bush will never get much international support is because he can NEVER admit when he is wrong or made a mistake. Allies will never come into Iraq if they have to tacitly agree or imply agreement with Bush's international policy.
That's a simple fact.
Kerry on the other hand can at least negotiate for allies to help out with our mess in Iraq, and make no mistake, it *is* a mess. By admitting that it was a mistake and that we poorly planned and made bad decisions on when to go in, he will win support in Europe of the people and quite possibly the governments.
Anyone that somehow things not admitting you made a massive error is going to get as much help fixing the errror as admitting the error would is being unrealistic.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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Oh, and once again, Kerry does not plan to turn tail and run.
He has said he thinks we will be able to get some of our troops out of Iraq in 6 months. Looking at his overall platform, it is fairly obvious that figure counts on international support.
He also clearly wants to put more troops in at first to help stabalize the region to encourage others to come in. Once we have a number of allies, then we can pull out *some* troops and still have more coalition troops than we do now.
It is very clear that something needs to change in Iraq. It is equally clear that Bush doesn't think anything needs to change and will not change anything.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
The man is a walking international disaster. Bush may have upset apple carts, Kerry has no clue that what he says is listened to outside of focus groups. |
So you think someone that managed to alienate all US allies after a unifying event like 9/11 has somehow just upset applecarts?
You think someone that can admit when America has made a mistake, that can admit when we need help, that can admit that the current Administration doesn't appoint the best people is somehow a walking international disaster even when the rest of the world sees nearly all of those items as blatantly obvious?
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Drachasor
At being honest, at being fiscally responsible, at diplomacy, at representing the needs of the people against the needs of corporations, at listening to criticism, at understanding the problems the working class is having, and at many other things. |
Anyone want to try to defend Bush on any of these items besides Iraq (which we are already going over)?
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Well, Drach, I would just like to point out that Bush is no socialist. I suspect from you post that you think that Kerry is. |
No, I am talking about a situation where 9 million more people are in the U.S. from immigration, and we've lost 1.6 million jobs in the private secotr, and made some jobs that traditionally pay less and give less benefits in the public sector.
Net job loss may be around half a million jobs, but we didn't have the growth needed for those 9 million more people.
Bush thinks everything is wonderful though. He doesn't realize that people need health care, but many companies are scaling it back or getting rid of it. Or maybe he just doesn't care.
Quite frankly, a healthier populace is a more productive populace, and by giving the working class benefits they can buy into and other benefits from working they will be given an effective tax break; stimulating the economy.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
That's not all Drach said. He said that the workers had to be protected from the corportations, or something to that effect. |
Oh, about that. Well, I think that people do need some protection againt corporations.
Let's take healthcare. Companies make more money by not curing or preventing problems, but by treating them eternally. Hence there is little incentive to cure or prevent problems and they don't. People need protection against this, the medical system needs to improve.
Bush in many other ways puts the needs of a few businesses (such as with his changes to the Clean Air Act) over the needs of the vast amount of the population.
-Drachasor
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Drachasor
No, I am talking about a situation where 9 million more people are in the U.S. from immigration, and we've lost 1.6 million jobs in the private secotr, and made some jobs that traditionally pay less and give less benefits in the public sector.
Net job loss may be around half a million jobs, but we didn't have the growth needed for those 9 million more people.
Bush thinks everything is wonderful though. He doesn't realize that people need health care, but many companies are scaling it back or getting rid of it. Or maybe he just doesn't care.
Quite frankly, a healthier populace is a more productive populace, and by giving the working class benefits they can buy into and other benefits from working they will be given an effective tax break; stimulating the economy.
-Drachasor |
Look, I agree that everyone needs health care. What do we do, though. Address the needs of those who don't have it, as Bush proposes, or generally take over the system for everyone as Kerry proposes?
Bait and switch. Do you get it?
Immigration? Are you talking about illegal immigration? Democrats can't seem to use that word and are very conflicted on the subject. They decry "immigration" because it undermines wages and jobs for Americans, but at the same time they promote illegal immigration by constantly calling for more welfare rights for the illegals and for amnesty.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Look, I agree that everyone needs health care. What do we do, though. Address the needs of those who don't have it, as Bush proposes, or generally take over the system for everyone as Kerry proposes?
Bait and switch. Do you get it?
Immigration? Are you talking about illegal immigration? Democrats can't seem to use that word and are very conflicted on the subject. They decry "immigration" because it undermines wages and jobs for Americans, but at the same time they promote illegal immigration by constantly calling for more welfare rights for the illegals and for amnesty. |
Kerry is not proposing a government-run healthcare system. He is proposing that the government helps pool the resources and bargaining power of everyone together and provide some financial assistance in order to get healthcare. Companies would still run the actual healthcare system.
Bush doesn't have any real proposals to fix the problem. He only talks about trial lawyers, and they are a *relatively* minor issue; they don't increase insurance costs much, and they don't affect most doctors. Kerry also wants to solve the trial lawyer issue, however he wants to do it in a way that will still allow people to sue in just cases.
-Drachasor
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