21-10-2004 18:57									#151
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Err... Having a state religion means religion in part is compulsory. Even if you don't believe in the religion, a citizen's (or subject's) taxes and state structure go to subsidize it. The state is the ultimate religious authority, even where the state religion has been disestablished.

and Bush's faith-based programs are a step in that direction... state subsidizing religion... bad...

	21-10-2004 18:58									#152
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DanS, Right, and in here you're not obligated to belong to any church, or pay the tax. The church tax is separate, and you pay it if you want to, or you don't pay it. It's that simple, it is voluntary.

	21-10-2004 18:59									#153
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quote: Even if you don't believe in the religion, a citizen's (or subject's) taxes and state structure go to subsidize it.

...something that really p*sses me off that.

	21-10-2004 19:00									#154
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quote: DanS, Right, and in here you're not obligated to belong to any church, or pay the tax. The church tax is separate, and you pay it if you want to, or you don't pay it. It's that simple, it is voluntary.

Having the state religion as Lutheran is in itself involuntary to a citizen. The state would fight tooth and nail if the Roman Catholic Church were to ask that the state religion be rescinded. If the RCC were to try to gain religious influence, the state would fight against it.

	21-10-2004 19:04									#155
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Yes, but you made it sound earlier as if we we're run by religion, or having any affect from the church to the politics all together. It's just not true in the single least bit. Not even in the carry bit.

Furthermore, the practice and theory is not always the same. Church has 0 powers in politics in here, and religious groups, where as many countries pride from having all laws and papers that church and state are separate, yet their politics is influenced WAY more by even religious groups.

	21-10-2004 19:06									#156
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quote: Yes, but you made it sound earlier as if we we're run by religion, or having any affect from the church to the politics all together. It's just not true in the single least bit. Not even in the carry bit.

No, you've got it the wrong way 'round. The state is the ultimate religious authority in Finland. Same as the UK. There is no separation of church and state.

	21-10-2004 19:08									#157
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DanS, yes maybe I just took it wrong way.. I sometimes understand things differently.

	21-10-2004 19:12									#158
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To be clear, most Americans would freak out with your system. A good portion of our ancestors left Europe because of it. It's not just a theoretical difference, you see.

	21-10-2004 19:14									#159
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Yeah, and ironically now despite state religions or whatever the church and religious extremists have much more influence on your politics than ours.

	21-10-2004 19:14									#160
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they pilgrams and all.. you should be happy we persecuted them a lot.. without our determination to topple those people, to harrash them at every corner possible and to make them uncomfortable and not free, you got America! The superpower.. you know, maybe you should let Europe be racist to what ever it feels like, seems like good things are coming out of it (exclude WWII).

	21-10-2004 19:16									#161
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Europe's less racist than the US.

	21-10-2004 19:19									#162
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MikeH: A good friend of mine is an immigrant from Sudan who moved to the UK when he was little. He thinks quite the opposite. Personally, I don't have much basis for comparison.

	21-10-2004 19:20									#163
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The last time I checked passing laws openly targeting our minorities went out of fashion more than a few decades ago. The same can not be said for Europe.

	21-10-2004 19:21									#164
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DanS, And the pastor who was in the US in the job my mom got afterwards was smoked out, because he was black.. incidentally he now works in finland Now that is weird!

I guess it's fair to say both places has their own share of racism.

	21-10-2004 19:22									#165
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DD; ohh an expert on European Law. OK start by explaining what is European Law?

	21-10-2004 19:22									#166
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quote: Yeah, and ironically now despite state religions or whatever the church and religious extremists have much more influence on your politics than ours.

Again, our system is not designed to limit the influence of religion on the state. It's designed to limit the influence of the state on religion.

This isn't tough stuff. I wonder why I have to keep explaining it to you lot.

Edit: Atheists have much more to fear from your system than ours, just as fringe religions have much more to fear from your system than ours.

	21-10-2004 19:27									#167
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Europe's less racist than the US.

Don't think so Mike, anyway, my guess is that most country's are just equall (no pun intented) on the racism question.

quote: The last time I checked passing laws openly targeting our minorities went out of fashion more than a few decades ago. The same can not be said for Europe.

That's the best you can do?

quote: Yeah, and ironically now despite state religions or whatever the church and religious extremists have much more influence on your politics than ours.

Often those who leave will cling on to the old-countries ways more then the ones actually living in the old country.

	21-10-2004 19:43									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker As opposed to the greater of two evils? Certainly.

Oh yes, of course. As long as you recognise the evil.

	21-10-2004 19:44									#169
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I was just making random ignorant unsupported statements like most of the US posters were about Europe.

	21-10-2004 20:34									#170
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This isn't tough stuff. I wonder why I have to keep explaining it to you lot.

There are people who are unable to comprehend recycling rules, and others, who can't understand the bizarre principles of American politics. I'd say, we educate both!

	21-10-2004 20:37									#171
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Atheists have much more to fear from your system than ours, just as fringe religions have much more to fear from your system than ours.

What system?

	21-10-2004 20:44									#172
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Again, our system is not designed to limit the influence of religion on the state. It's designed to limit the influence of the state on religion. This isn't tough stuff. I wonder why I have to keep explaining it to you lot. Edit: Atheists have much more to fear from your system than ours, just as fringe religions have much more to fear from your system than ours.

The problem is you are taking the theoretical way our system could work and assuming that's how it does work.

We have freedom of religion - as long as those religious practices don't break the rules of the country. Which is perfectly sensible. The church/state link is purely ceremonial.

	21-10-2004 21:16									#173
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The idea of "separation of church and state" is very simple: the government shouldn't punish people for things you think are "sins", your god should. The government should just protect people from being harmed by others. As such, the RCC advocating its opinion (or even legislating) on the abortion issue is not a violation of separation of church and state, because it is not punishment for being sinful, but protecting innocents from being harmed by others. They happen to think that fetuses are people.

	21-10-2004 21:21									#174
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And on what grounds do they happen to think that fetuses are people?

	21-10-2004 21:22									#175
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That's fine, the RCC are allowed to lobby, teach or convert people as much as they want, and the EU citizens are free to make up their own minds and vote as they want.

	21-10-2004 21:23									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And on what grounds do they happen to think that fetuses are people?

On what grounds do you think blacks are people?

On what grounds, for that matter, do you think any human is a person?

	21-10-2004 21:27									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris And on what grounds do they happen to think that fetuses are people?

They are entitled to that view, just as you are entitled to the counter view.

	21-10-2004 21:29									#178
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Bunch of cells with no brain and nerve system, subsisting with someone's body and dependant on it for survival != a person.

As for black persons, I don't want to engage in a debate about universals. The easy answer could still be that whiteness can't conceiveably be a good criteria for 'personhood'.

	21-10-2004 23:55									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yes, thqt's what I read. I don't remember the main story being about an "uproar" (at least the way I understand it, i.e the public opinion being widely shocked - I would classify, for example, the French overreaction to headscarves as "uproar" in my vocabulary). I just saw that a guy had a position completely opposite to that of the mainstream EU-Parliament, and who was politically shot-down by the EU-Parli. If it was an anti-competition commie who was proposed (and politically shot down, because this legislature is very favourable to free-markets), would you have said that the EU persecutes commies?

OK, no uproar then. But that is not my point. The point of my question becomes this:

Is it true that the EU holds a position that the primary purpose for a family is something other than providing protection (in the form of a wage-earning father, etc.) for a women to raise children?

	22-10-2004 00:05									#180
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Second, regardless of all that crap about the EU and abortion about how Catholics are not oppressed, the article seem to suggest that a Catholic who "believes" in positions that differ from official EU policy cannot be a member of the EU government.

That IS discrimination.