25-10-2004 22:20									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki At the end of the day, it's an arbirtrary line anyway since there's no magical "coming of age" event that happens at any age. Eighteen make sense though, because that's when most people graduate high school and are considered adults in many other facets. Don't take this personally, Kuci. I have absolutely no doubt that you could make a more informed choice than most voters. But for every 16 year old like you, I would have no problem finding 10 or 20 that should not vote.

This is better for democracy as well. You'd end up with far more voting 18 year olds because they'd be used to it from earlier. It would also probably vastly decrease the number of people who are just ignorant about the issues - because they'd start being exposed in a meaningful way during a time when they're in a concentrated learning environment - also at the same time as they start to really be taught American history and government.

	25-10-2004 22:22									#212
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If 16-17 year olds are going to complain about paying taxes and not having a vote, then perhaps we should make it illegal for them to work (then they don't have to worry about paying taxes).

Society has deemed that 18 is the arbitrary age where kids become mature enough to enter into contracts, vote, etc... It may be arbitrary, but since there is no fair way to judge maturity, we need that arbitrary limit. I disagree with letting kids vote because they aren't mature at that age (16 or 17). Some are... but not enough to warrant changing the voting age.

And manipulation by parents is highly likely. I know some people over the age of 21 who are manipulated into voting for who their parents say to vote for. Many people around my age group 18-24 aren't mature enough to be allowed to vote. If we change the limits at all, we should raise the age of military service and voting to 21. We should have one all-purpose limit for voting, drinking, military service, and entering into contracts. I'm fine with 18 being that age. I figure after high school, you are capable enough to do what you want. But not before.

	25-10-2004 22:26									#213
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also, if you live at home and our dependent on your parents

you aren't responsible enough to vote

JM

	25-10-2004 22:27									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker This is better for democracy as well. You'd end up with far more voting 18 year olds because they'd be used to it from earlier. It would also probably vastly decrease the number of people who are just ignorant about the issues - because they'd start being exposed in a meaningful way during a time when they're in a concentrated learning environment - also at the same time as they start to really be taught American history and government.

But that argument holds just as well, if not better, for 18 year olds who just finished studying American history and government over a longer period of time. In any case, your argument also works for 14 year olds. Why don't you lower the voting age to 14? How about even lower than that?

	25-10-2004 22:30									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller also, if you live at home and our dependent on your parents you aren't responsible enough to vote JM

I disagree with that. Both my sister and I still rely on our parents. You really don't start to become independent until mid 20's. It's a different world out there. Most decent jobs/careers require at minimum a college degree. There's nothing wrong with being supported by your parents well into your 20's if you are going to college.

	25-10-2004 22:47									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Many teens work even during the school year, and everyone pays SS and medicare tax.

I'm well aware that a large number of teenagers work part-time during high school session, as well as during the summer, thank you very much.


My question was, isn't it unusual for 16 year olds to already hold FULL-time jobs -- as well as being unusual that even those exceptions who do have full-time jobs, to work at wages in which they can live as independent adults?

	25-10-2004 22:49									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller also, if you live at home and our dependent on your parents you aren't responsible enough to vote JM

I disagree with lowering the voting age to 16, but this argument makes NO sense, at all.

	25-10-2004 22:53									#218
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And Sava makes the 2nd best serious point in this thread. I feel like I'm in bizarro world!

	25-10-2004 22:55									#219
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All of Apolyton is bizarro.

	25-10-2004 22:59									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If 16-17 year olds are going to complain about paying taxes and not having a vote, then perhaps we should make it illegal for them to work (then they don't have to worry about paying taxes). Society has deemed that 18 is the arbitrary age where kids become mature enough to enter into contracts, vote, etc... It may be arbitrary, but since there is no fair way to judge maturity, we need that arbitrary limit. I disagree with letting kids vote because they aren't mature at that age (16 or 17). Some are... but not enough to warrant changing the voting age. And manipulation by parents is highly likely. I know some people over the age of 21 who are manipulated into voting for who their parents say to vote for. Many people around my age group 18-24 aren't mature enough to be allowed to vote. If we change the limits at all, we should raise the age of military service and voting to 21. We should have one all-purpose limit for voting, drinking, military service, and entering into contracts. I'm fine with 18 being that age. I figure after high school, you are capable enough to do what you want. But not before.

We must have entered the Twilight Zone or something. Not just Sava makes perfect sense but I agree 100% with every word he just said.

	25-10-2004 23:00									#221
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That's what happens when we argue against hare-brained ideas like letting kids vote.

	25-10-2004 23:28									#222
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP There is no requirement voters be smart, educated, literate or even sane.

Put those requirements in place and I'll support lowering the voting age.

	25-10-2004 23:48									#223
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Fine by me. You do realize however, that half or more of the adult population would be disenfranchised.

	26-10-2004 00:17									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki But that argument holds just as well, if not better, for 18 year olds who just finished studying American history and government over a longer period of time. In any case, your argument also works for 14 year olds. Why don't you lower the voting age to 14? How about even lower than that?

No, the argument doesn't, for several reasons:

1) college students don't necessarily take any government courses at all

2) not all 18 year olds go to college (all but a very few 16 year olds are in high school)

3) 16 year olds are actively studying it in a coordinated environment - their learning about the stuff during the election. Not only would it increase interest in the election, because it's relevant to what they're doing in class, but it would increase interest in the class, because it's relevant to the election in which they can actually participate.

	26-10-2004 00:18									#225
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm well aware that a large number of teenagers work part-time during high school session, as well as during the summer, thank you very much. My question was, isn't it unusual for 16 year olds to already hold FULL-time jobs -- as well as being unusual that even those exceptions who do have full-time jobs, to work at wages in which they can live as independent adults?

Should welfare recipients be denied the vote?

	26-10-2004 00:20									#226
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Who are these 16 year olds who are just studying civics? My high school did not have a civics class until Senior year, when everyone was 17-18. And even then it was an elective which most people didn't bother to take.

	26-10-2004 00:22									#227
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Well, Junior year we're taking AP US History, and since up until November you're going to be covering the genesis of the country and, most importantly, the Constitution, it acts pretty well as a civics/government course.

Next year we take AP Government.

	26-10-2004 00:46									#228
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quote: since up until November you're going to be covering the genesis of the country and, most importantly, the Constitution, it acts pretty well as a civics/government course.

But not really. Leaning about how the Constitution came into effect has little to do with how the government works now! As any one who's complained about how far the US government has gone from the Constitution should be acutely aware of .

	26-10-2004 00:51									#229
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I had a civics class my sophomore year in HS...

	26-10-2004 01:04									#230
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It seems it depends on the school when the civics class is.

	26-10-2004 01:08									#231
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Fine by me. You do realize however, that half or more of the adult population would be disenfranchised.

Not a problem as far as I'm concerned. We can all do without idiots at the polling booth.

	26-10-2004 01:11									#232
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It also seems that Kuci is projecting his experiences onto those of all other 16 year olds. Isn't he going to some super-elite proto-nerd school?

Kuci - what percentage of 16 year olds across America take AP anything?

	26-10-2004 01:20									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No, the argument doesn't, for several reasons: 1) college students don't necessarily take any government courses at all 2) not all 18 year olds go to college (all but a very few 16 year olds are in high school) 3) 16 year olds are actively studying it in a coordinated environment - their learning about the stuff during the election. Not only would it increase interest in the election, because it's relevant to what they're doing in class, but it would increase interest in the class, because it's relevant to the election in which they can actually participate.

To more directly respond to this:

1) What does college have to do with this? Eighteen is generally when you graduate high school. Given that elections are held in November, most 18 year olds will have just graduated from high school, full to the brim with all the knowledge from your AP courses.

2) What does this have to do with anything?

3) Again, it would appear that most 16 year olds are not studying it. And you don't go changing ages of consent, voting, or anything because it might increase interest in a high school class. Of all the piss poor reasons to do something, this one ranks just above "because I want it".

	26-10-2004 01:24									#234
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AP courses are generally just more homework and papers... it doesn't necessarily teach you anything more than regular classes.

but it makes all the nerds feel special... so I say let the baby have their bottles.

High school is a joke anyhow... it doesn't matter if you were AP everything once you get to college. Going to college is the great equalizer. Everybody starts out at the same level regardless of what they did in high school.

Having said that, you should take regular classes instead of AP, Kuciwalker. Then you can relax and enjoy yourself rather than burden yourself with extra work that won't mean didleyshit the day you graduate high school.

	26-10-2004 01:31									#235
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College

And I'd bet that more people will be willing to vote in the politically charged atmosphere of a college rather than ho-dunk town where the most political stuff will be signs and stuff. In terms of politics, there is no place you are more surrounded with it than in the college environment. Unless you go and work for CNN or something .

	26-10-2004 01:32									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui ho-dunk

	26-10-2004 01:34									#237
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That was Clinton's favorite phrase .

	26-10-2004 02:26									#238
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It's "po-dunk", Imran, not "ho-dunk". "Po" is short for "poor", in case you were wondering.

	26-10-2004 02:29									#239
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My college really isn't political at all....

	26-10-2004 02:32									#240
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Most American voting could not tell you there are three branches of government- so teenagers are no more ignorant of our process than our general public is.