25-10-2004 04:55									#151
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Then why support the voting age?

	25-10-2004 05:05									#152
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TS,

quote: Sometimes someone may do something you don't agree with, it's not that they are dumb, they just have different motivations and experiences than you do.

Yeah, and I'm not concerned about intelligent people who vote based on legitimate convictions (I still think popular vote is a shitty way to determine what taxes I pay, for example). My problem is the idiots who are influenced by political attack ads, what their preacher says on Sunday, or people who cast votes with no concern for how their votes will affect the freedom of others.

quote: So give me your criteria for who can vote and who can't?

Actually, I wouldn't be at all concerned with who votes and doesn't vote, if the federal and state government were more limited, and those limitations were actually enforced. A "voter mandate" is, or at least can be, extremely dangerous to individual liberty.

MrFun,

quote: I am not concerned about someone's intelligence as a qualification for a RIGHT to vote.

And I really don't consider voting to be a right, or even a legitimate individual liberty - if the concern is individual rights and liberties, then those are better protected by a Constitution strongly limiting the powers of government that is strictly enforced than by a mass of moronic voters who vote for whoever promises them the most stuff.

	25-10-2004 06:12									#153
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Ozzy, you claim that kids would self-regulate (ie idiots wouldn't go to the polls) but you say that adults do not. Why is there a distinction there?

Seems to me that kids wouldn't necessarily self-regulate. And you've got to admit that some kids are just not going to make the right decisions for the country. Most of them in fact.


Edit to add specific reference-

Ozzy suggesting the youth will self-regulate:

quote: Also, for all age groups those individuals who are uninformed, unintelligent and immature aren't going to bother going to the polls on election day and casting a ballot in the first place. Its self regulating.

Ozzy suggesting adults will not self-regulate:

quote: In the twisted world we live in, being a metally retarded adult with an IQ of 12 and an age of 40 has a right to vote whereas a Harvard graduate and genious at age of 16 doesn't. This is unjust discrimination, entirely divorced from all meaning and reasonableness

	25-10-2004 06:15									#154
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And someone (Floyd) thought saying "blacks tend to bomb literacy tests" is racist. Statistically it is true that a black American would fare worse off than a white American on average. It's political correctness gone out of control to dislike Affirmative Action or somesuch because it "presupposes blacks are dumb."

	25-10-2004 06:19									#155
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sholdn't Ozzie be your hero Wiglaf?

I mean, he was actually on Fox News

JM

	25-10-2004 06:24									#156
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So is Allen Colmes

I would sue Allan Colmes, if I had $20 and a baseball bat, but as it stands he is still in business, but as for Ozzy yes I respect that.

	25-10-2004 06:44									#157
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quote: quote: -------------------------- Originally posted by David Floyd What, are Democrats saying that blacks are less intelligent? That's pretty racist --------------------------- Nah, just that IQ tests don't measure intelligence without significant skews for social and cultural reasons (amongst others).

What a toolish answer. So many blacks bomb IQ tests because they either don't go to school or go to a bad school, and many get into college ratherly generously. An IQ test would "disenfranchise" some blacks because, due to their (and perhaps their family's) utter lack of education, they simply aren't intelligent.

The sooner you PC types realize this the quicker these people and their children can be educated. Otherwise the test is unfair for "social and cultural reasons." What patronizing crap.

	25-10-2004 07:04									#158
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat What you call a "fresh perspective" is simply a lack of understanding of the issues. Most young people will either have a poor understanding of the issues or will regurgitate their parents' positions. How is that good?

Evidence?

All that takes to understand the issues is a little thought. It's not like you need long experience to be able to decide on gay marriage, etc.

quote: I never said that 16 years old are idiots. Being uninformed is not the same thing as being an idiot. I think 16 years old lack the life experience and knowledge to vote responsibly. That does not mean that they are idiots.

16 year olds lack as much general knowledge (useful to voting) as adults.

	25-10-2004 07:10									#159
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quote: It's not like you need long experience to be able to decide on gay marriage, etc.

This is where you are highly mistaken. Most (99%) of teenagers do not deal with Social security or taxes, hell many do not even know what Social Security is, and you must admit that if they don't care, parents will easily convince them to double-vote.

You do need experience with the issues, on at least some level. To introduce millions of new voters with so much potential for abuse, and who are so inexperienced.. it's got to be at least a little troubling?

	25-10-2004 07:23									#160
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quote: Ozzy suggesting the youth will self-regulate: quote: Also, for all age groups those individuals who are uninformed, unintelligent and immature aren't going to bother going to the polls on election day and casting a ballot in the first place. Its self regulating. Ozzy suggesting adults will not self-regulate: quote: In the twisted world we live in, being a metally retarded adult with an IQ of 12 and an age of 40 has a right to vote whereas a Harvard graduate and genious at age of 16 doesn't. This is unjust discrimination, entirely divorced from all meaning and reasonableness

Having a right to vote is not the same as exercising that right. Thats the entire point I'm making Wig.

	25-10-2004 07:26									#161
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For reference, here are the current age minimums for a number of things in the United States:

12 Minimum age to hold a farm job
13 Age of marriage with parental/court approval (lower boundary)
13 Jewish mitzvah
14 Age of consent (lower boundary)
14 Minimum age to hold a non-farm job (time limits apply)
14 Learner driving permit age / agricultural license (lower boundary)
16 Minimum age to work unrestricted hours
16 Driving age (lower boundary)
16 Catholic confirmation
17 Age of marriage with parental/court approval (upper boundary)
17 Minimum age to enlist in military
17 Average age of physical maturity
17 High school graduation (lower boundary w/o skipping years)
18 Age of consent (upper boundary)
18 Age to buy a rifle or shotgun
18 Age to buy tobacco
18 Men eligible for military draft
18 Age of marriage without parental approval
21 Drinking age
21 Age to buy a handgun
25 Run for House of Representatives
30 For Senate
35 For President

and now, on the other end of things....

25 Maximum age to be drafted
35 Maximum age to enlist in military (compare to minimum age to be Prez...)
44 Statistical upper boundary of female fertility
50 Eligible for AARP membership
60 Maximum age for veterans to be called back into active duty
62 Minimum age to recieve Social Security (limited benefits)
65 Medicare eligibility
67 Social Security with full benefits
70 Statistical upper boundary of male fertility
74 Male life expectancy
80 Female life expectancy

	25-10-2004 07:27									#162
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quote: Having a right to vote is not the same as exercising that right. Thats the entire point I'm making Wig.

Well that's pretty intuitive. When I claimed millions of teenagers are misinformed, you told me they wouldn't bother to vote, but you say misinformed adults do. It seemed like a contradiction

Clearly both blocs are not self-regulating.

	25-10-2004 07:31									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf This is where you are highly mistaken. Most (99%) of teenagers do not deal with Social security or taxes, hell many do not even know what Social Security is, and you must admit that if they don't care, parents will easily convince them to double-vote. You do need experience with the issues, on at least some level. To introduce millions of new voters with so much potential for abuse, and who are so inexperienced.. it's got to be at least a little troubling?

Teens pay $9.7 Billion in sales tax alone. That's more than what the entire state of Wisconsin pays in sales AND income tax.

I doubt that 1% of teens are paying all those taxes themselves

And teens most definitely pay social security taxes. A large number of teens work. I know I, and all my friends had jobs in high school. A clear majority of every teen i've known has had an after school job, or a summer job. You are totally off base.

	25-10-2004 07:37									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Well that's pretty intuitive. When I claimed millions of teenagers are misinformed, you told me they wouldn't bother to vote, but you say misinformed adults do. It seemed like a contradiction Clearly both blocs are not self-regulating.

I'll use smaller words this time, because clearly you aren't understanding. I never said misinformed adults don't self-regulate, I said they have the right to vote. Adults self-regulate and so would youth. Its not 100%, I never claimed that. But it doesn't change the fact that a geezer with alzheimers has a right to vote.

So in summary:
All groups self-regulate
I never said otherwise
Having a right is different than exercising that right

	25-10-2004 07:40									#165
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yeah, and I'm not concerned about intelligent people who vote based on legitimate convictions (I still think popular vote is a shitty way to determine what taxes I pay, for example). My problem is the idiots who are influenced by political attack ads, what their preacher says on Sunday, or people who cast votes with no concern for how their votes will affect the freedom of others.

You and I BOTH fall into this group whether you would like to admit it or not.

A fatal mistake is to assume that you are "in the know" while everyone else is not.

	25-10-2004 07:40									#166
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Smiley don't forget people can babysit and deliver newspapers and volunteer and do other jobs from like 9 or 10. And you can get a piolits license at like 13.

	25-10-2004 07:43									#167
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quote: And teens most definitely pay social security taxes. A large number of teens work. I know I, and all my friends had jobs in high school. A clear majority of every teen i've known has had an after school job, or a summer job. You are totally off base.

60% of 16-19 year olds looked for work in 2000. Reduce the age group to 16-18 and you'll get a much smaller figure of people who have even worked. And that's including summer jobs, etc. You think 16 year olds will go to the polls because they're losing $50 out of their paycheck every week?

	25-10-2004 07:57									#168
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Wow, from 1% of teens work, to 60% of teens work, that's what you call an ex·ag·ger·a·tion

	25-10-2004 08:08									#169
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No, not really, and I get the feeling you're ignoring my arguments now.

99% of teenagers do not deal with feeding families, or holding serious jobs. Most flip burgers to pay for videogames, or work summer jobs to pay off cell phone minutes. They would not seriously consider voting Kerry or Bush based solely on the economics of their job at Burger King. And if they did, it would be a stupid vote anyway, and in an election where 500 votes can swing the balance, that's pretty important.

	25-10-2004 08:10									#170
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Teenage burger-flippers help fuel the tremendous growth in the manufacturing sector

	25-10-2004 08:13									#171
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They're also unaware of it and all other economic principles

	25-10-2004 08:13									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf No, not really, and I get the feeling you're ignoring my arguments now. 99% of teenagers do not deal with feeding families, or holding serious jobs. Most flip burgers to pay for videogames, or work summer jobs to pay off cell phone minutes. They would not seriously consider voting Kerry or Bush based solely on the economics of their job at Burger King. And if they did, it would be a stupid vote anyway, and in an election where 500 votes can swing the balance, that's pretty important.

Who are you to judge the reasons a person decides to vote? Just because they might not be your reasons, doesn't mean they aren't valid reasons.

But if you want to make that argument, that you need to be "feeding families" to count in this society. Then how about we disenfranchise everyone on welfare, everyone on social security, everyone drawing a pension, and hell, all single people too while we're at it.

	25-10-2004 08:14									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf They're also unaware of it and all other economic principles

THat would describe damn near all Americans.

	25-10-2004 08:15									#174
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The 500 votes can swing the balance argument can be used to disenfranchise just about any demographic group.

	25-10-2004 08:22									#175
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Ozzy-

What age were you advocating voting be lowered to?

	25-10-2004 08:25									#176
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16

	25-10-2004 08:31									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf 60% of 16-19 year olds looked for work in 2000. Reduce the age group to 16-18 and you'll get a much smaller figure of people who have even worked. And that's including summer jobs, etc. You think 16 year olds will go to the polls because they're losing $50 out of their paycheck every week?

I worked. Definately more than half of my classmates held a summer job. And 50$ out of an average teen's paycheck is a helluva lot of money.

	25-10-2004 08:37									#178
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP 16

I would agree to that.

I think with an mildly ambitious educational program, you could change America's voting habits to be more educated. Require all 16-18 olds to take a current events/civics class the fall semester of each national election. Maybe they carry what they learn throughout their lives. Maybe not.

	25-10-2004 08:38									#179
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We already do take civics and government classes.

	25-10-2004 08:43									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker We already do take civics and government classes.

The last government course I was required to take was in 9th grade, granted that was probably around, say 92?

different schools obviously do things differently. At mine, we had a current events-type class that was purely optional.

I'm talking about a class purely focused on the election and issues. If your school has that, then bully for you and your school. If kids your age could actually vote, then a class like that would actually have meaning, rather than a regular bs hs course.