25-10-2004 00:48									#121
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Hmmm...I'm not sure more people voting is a good thing. I'd rather discourage voter turnout than increase it, on the rationale that increasing voter turnout disproportionately increases the number of morons who vote.

	25-10-2004 00:50									#122
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Will some bastard please tell these guys how to convert DVR to mpeg!!

	25-10-2004 01:06									#123
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat This is more a problem with our judicial system than a problem of not voting.

Prosecutors are elected.
Local judges are elected.
Legislatures are elected.


Only the power of the vote can hope to reform the system.

	25-10-2004 01:13									#124
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP diplomat, how about you follow that link I posted. You asked for reasons, I gave you reasons. If you want more in depth explinations, follow that link.

I read your link. But, you are ignoring the fact that your 10 reasons given in the link do not hold up. First, 16 years old don't lose anything by waiting 2 years to vote. 16 years old are not going to vote more or better than any other age group. You'll still have smart voters and stupid voters. You'll still have youth not voting just as you have adults that don't bother to vote. Giving 16 years the right to vote will not improve the election process.

Secondly, 16 years old are simply not in a place in their lives where they can make an informed decision. They have limited life experience. They have little knowledge of the issues. The issues that affect 16 years old like education are already important election issues so their interests are already being addressed.

The real reason you want youth to vote is because you think they will vote democrat. You think they will support more government spending in education, more social spending and more "liberal" stances on social issues (pro-abortion, pro gay marriage). So you want them to vote so that they counter the votes of the "closed minded" old people that you think are stuck in the past and are voting conservative. That is what you insinuated when you said "Old people are also terribly set in their ways. They don't have a fresh mind and perspective to judge things impartially. They vote based on prejudices and preconseptions that go back decades".

	25-10-2004 01:24									#125
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Erm, Ozzy isn't even voting Democrat.


BTW, at my school the student body is 60% conservative, and the faculty is 95% liberal.

	25-10-2004 01:27									#126
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat So it is just to get more democrat votes. You figure 16 year old will probably support gay marriage and abortion and the likes, since they have a "fresh mind".

Frankly, that's a good thing. Think - would you rather people who attack thing with a fresh perspective, or people who won't be convinced by any argument, vote?

quote: That's not entirely true. Politicians still pay attention to youth issues because they know the youth care about these issues and will vote on them when they reach 18. Besides, if you give 16 years the right to vote, politicians will pander to get those votes. You'll weaken important issues like national security because politicians will have to pay more attention to silly youth issues.

That's your problem, you assume 16 year olds are complete idiots. Personally, I know a good number of people my age who would make much more intelligent posts than yours and politicians already pander very much to senior citizen votes.

	25-10-2004 01:29									#127
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quote: Secondly, 16 years old are simply not in a place in their lives where they can make an informed decision. They have limited life experience. They have little knowledge of the issues. The issues that affect 16 years old like education are already important election issues so their interests are already being addressed.

Well, that's a poor argument - there are plenty of unqualified adult voters. Look how they all ****ed up in Florida in 2000, for example. Bunch of 'tards, you ask me.

	25-10-2004 01:30									#128
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Here's an idea: limit the number of times you can vote

Say you can vote for President only once in your life. That would probably result in much better thought-out votes.

	25-10-2004 01:33									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker * Kuciwalker is 16

Explains why you still have problems with philosophy.

	25-10-2004 01:33									#130
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, that's a poor argument - there are plenty of unqualified adult voters. Look how they all ****ed up in Florida in 2000, for example. Bunch of 'tards, you ask me.

	25-10-2004 01:35									#131
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I will never understand the argument: "Because stupid adults are entitled to the right of vote, we should make a bigger pile of sh*t by allowing teenagers the right to vote."

	25-10-2004 01:36									#132
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I say, put an age UPPER limit on voting - say, whatever retirement age is - and combine it with an IQ test. That way, only reasonably intelligent people who won't tend to **** up can vote

Note: Voting is obviously not very important in my concept of individual rights

	25-10-2004 01:38									#133
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I would argue that adults and teenagers are on roughly the same level of idiocy overall, but mostly the smart teenagers would vote.

	25-10-2004 01:39									#134
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Here is what I think: All adults age 18 or older have the right to vote, regardless how "stupid" or "lazy" some of them are.


This, IMO, does not necessarily mean that this justifies extending the vote to teenagers.

	25-10-2004 01:39									#135
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I say, put an age UPPER limit on voting - say, whatever retirement age is - and combine it with an IQ test. That way, only reasonably intelligent people who won't tend to **** up can vote Note: Voting is obviously not very important in my concept of individual rights

The trouble with IQ tests is that Democrats would insist that it's a way to disenfranchise Black people.

Of course, literacy tests have been used that way, so maybe it's not much of a stretch.

	25-10-2004 01:43									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Explains why you still have problems with philosophy.

He's smarter than you.

	25-10-2004 01:43									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by The diplomat So it is just to get more democrat votes. You figure 16 year old will probably support gay marriage and abortion and the likes, since they have a "fresh mind". Frankly, that's a good thing. Think - would you rather people who attack thing with a fresh perspective, or people who won't be convinced by any argument, vote?

What you call a "fresh perspective" is simply a lack of understanding of the issues. Most young people will either have a poor understanding of the issues or will regurgitate their parents' positions. How is that good?

quote: quote: That's not entirely true. Politicians still pay attention to youth issues because they know the youth care about these issues and will vote on them when they reach 18. Besides, if you give 16 years the right to vote, politicians will pander to get those votes. You'll weaken important issues like national security because politicians will have to pay more attention to silly youth issues. That's your problem, you assume 16 year olds are complete idiots. Personally, I know a good number of people my age who would make much more intelligent posts than yours and politicians already pander very much to senior citizen votes.

I never said that 16 years old are idiots. Being uninformed is not the same thing as being an idiot. I think 16 years old lack the life experience and knowledge to vote responsibly. That does not mean that they are idiots.

	25-10-2004 01:52									#138
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I will never understand the argument: "Because stupid adults are entitled to the right of vote, we should make a bigger pile of sh*t by allowing teenagers the right to vote."

Lets see if I can make a successful jump to a new situation to see it in a new light. Lets say roller coasters are physically designed for people who are 5 feet tall and above. Anyone below that doesn't quite fit in the seats well, or strap down well and pose a danger of flying out.

The reasonable thing would be for the amusement park, seeking to keep people safe (and cut down on lawsuits), to simply prevent all individuals who are shorter than 5 feet from riding the ride. Instead they figure that most children under 12 (lets say) are shorter than 5'0, so they will just ban all children under 12.

This policy is stupid, counterproductive, abstract, and discriminatory. This policy bans children under 12 who are over 5'0 and allows adults under 5'0 to ride the coaster. This policy ignores completely that an 11 year old who was 5'2 is perfectly safe riding the coaster, and an adult who is 4'8 is in danger riding the coaster.

This policy is as absurd as the voting age.

If we are concerned about people intelligence or education (height) then we should simply test for that. If, as we have it now, we don't care if stupid people vote then why pretend that is a reason for denying youth?

	25-10-2004 01:54									#139
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Wow. That's a good analogy.


The combined score of this debate so far:
Ozzy: 24
Kuci: 13
Diplo: 13

Total score:

37-13 Youth Rights side.

	25-10-2004 02:01									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Wow. That's a good analogy. The combined score of this debate so far: Ozzy: 24 Kuci: 13 Diplo: 13 Total score: 37-13 Youth Rights side.

How did figure those numbers?

	25-10-2004 02:03									#141
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Cause he is cool, smart, and uses a subject in his sentences.

	25-10-2004 02:15									#142
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat How did figure those numbers?

They are completely and totally arbitrary.

	25-10-2004 02:16									#143
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Hmmm...I'm not sure more people voting is a good thing. I'd rather discourage voter turnout than increase it, on the rationale that increasing voter turnout disproportionately increases the number of morons who vote.

Arrogant

	25-10-2004 02:22									#144
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Without reading the arguments above:
If we allow youth to vote, then perhaps some intelligent children will vote and make a good, informed decision, but the vast majority of them will be subject to the wills of peer pressure and parental pressure. If they dont want to vote, their parents will likely force them to vote for the candidate they are going to vote for, which gives essentially an extra vote.
The argument that "Well, most people who go to the polls ANYWAY are stupid, so theres no harm done!" is not a good one - while a small portion of intelligent voters will be introduced, the vast majority will not be and it will only compound the problem.
A teenager is not going to know what its like to pay taxes or have children or anysuch because they likely have not experienced these things - they haven't even passed high school yet!
There would just be too many ignorant people who will become echoes of their parents that it just is not worth it. Yes, a small percentage of them are intelligent, but introducing 99 ignorants just to include the 1 intelligent person is not a good trade off, in my opinion

	25-10-2004 03:39									#145
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quote: The trouble with IQ tests is that Democrats would insist that it's a way to disenfranchise Black people.

What, are Democrats saying that blacks are less intelligent? That's pretty racist

TS,

quote: Arrogant

So you actually want the opinions of stupid people and the mis-votes of people too senile to know what they're doing to affect your life? I'm not talking about some ridiculously high IQ requirement. An IQ of 95-100 might be good, and that's not unreasonable.

If we have to determine things by votes, let's at least limit the number of potential voters to those who are less likely to vote like ****tards.

	25-10-2004 04:24									#146
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd What, are Democrats saying that blacks are less intelligent? That's pretty racist

Nah, just that IQ tests don't measure intelligence without significant skews for social and cultural reasons (amongst others).

	25-10-2004 04:32									#147
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quote: Nah, just that IQ tests don't measure intelligence without significant skews for social and cultural reasons (amongst others).

Well, I've found that people with high IQs are generally pretty intelligent, and people with low IQs generally are not. Besides, if IQ tests are skewed towards mainstream US culture/society, I don't see that as being a bad thing if IQ scores are used as a voting criteria in the US

	25-10-2004 04:40									#148
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quote: So you actually want the opinions of stupid people and the mis-votes of people too senile to know what they're doing to affect your life? I'm not talking about some ridiculously high IQ requirement. An IQ of 95-100 might be good, and that's not unreasonable. If we have to determine things by votes, let's at least limit the number of potential voters to those who are less likely to vote like ****tards.

You are wrong on so many levels I'm not even going to go into them all. I can't honestly believe you are taking this seriously. Maybe you are just trolling by wanting to play devil's advocate.

Sometimes someone may do something you don't agree with, it's not that they are dumb, they just have different motivations and experiences than you do.

So give me your criteria for who can vote and who can't?

Disgusting.

	25-10-2004 04:44									#149
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quote: Sometimes someone may do something you don't agree with, it's not that they are dumb, they just have different motivations and experiences than you do.

Exactly
Ted Striker
Lowering the Voting Age
Shameless plug

	25-10-2004 04:51									#150
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP If we are concerned about people intelligence or education (height) then we should simply test for that. If, as we have it now, we don't care if stupid people vote then why pretend that is a reason for denying youth?

I'm not a snobbish, elitist -- I am not concerned about someone's intelligence as a qualification for a RIGHT to vote.