25-10-2004 08:44									#181
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That would be horrible, having a government-mandated course focusing on the election.

	25-10-2004 08:46									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That would be horrible, having a government-mandated course focusing on the election.

Well, probably so.

But you (pl) would be more educated on issues than 90% of the population (whether you like it or not, young man )

(and thus not "waste" your vote like Mr. Wiglaf would suggest)

	25-10-2004 08:47									#183
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No, I meant as in horrible for democracy.

	25-10-2004 08:50									#184
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quote: You and I BOTH fall into this group whether you would like to admit it or not. A fatal mistake is to assume that you are "in the know" while everyone else is not.

Actually, I don't vote based on attack ads or what my preacher says, and every vote I cast is designed with liberty in mind. So you may fall into one of those categories, but I don't.

	25-10-2004 08:51									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No, I meant as in horrible for democracy.

What, you don't trust the government to educate the youth? I'm shocked.

	25-10-2004 08:51									#186
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You just think you don't.

Nobody lives on an island.

	25-10-2004 08:53									#187
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No, I'm telling you right now that preachers and attack ads don't influence my vote. I'm also telling you that, believe it or not, I don't vote for the candidate that will dump the most social programs my way - I vote for the one who will be best for individual liberty, ie, I keep liberty for myself and others in mind when I'm voting.

	25-10-2004 08:55									#188
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And I'm sure the people you are calling, "morons" feel the exact same way that you do.


So what makes you more qualified than them?

	25-10-2004 09:06									#189
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Sad that Comrade Tassadar makes the best serious points on this issue.

	25-10-2004 09:08									#190
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And ironic, too.

	25-10-2004 09:39									#191
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel What, you don't trust the government to educate the youth? I'm shocked.

I don't trust the government to "educate" the youth about who they should vote for.

	25-10-2004 09:57									#192
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I think they should raise the voting age back up to 21. Kids are idiots.

	25-10-2004 09:58									#193
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If Ozzy insists that 16 year old Americans should be entitled to the right to vote, I would like to know if he insists that 16 year olds need to take with that right, all the ADULT obligations of citizenship??

	25-10-2004 11:29									#194
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That's a good point

	25-10-2004 15:36									#195
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quote: Originally posted by alva I personally think we need to let kids be kids for as long as possible. They grow fast enough as it is.

I would say that 17 is a good minimal age to vote.

	25-10-2004 15:42									#196
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Cool the minimum age for enlisting in the military is 17, but you need to be 21 for a handgun and 18 for a rifle

What do they fight with?

	25-10-2004 17:21									#197
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun If Ozzy insists that 16 year old Americans should be entitled to the right to vote, I would like to know if he insists that 16 year olds need to take with that right, all the ADULT obligations of citizenship??

Only if you deny the vote to people on welfare

	25-10-2004 18:19									#198
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun If Ozzy insists that 16 year old Americans should be entitled to the right to vote, I would like to know if he insists that 16 year olds need to take with that right, all the ADULT obligations of citizenship??

You mean like getting charged as an adult for crimes, getting the death penalty, joining the military or being taxed? Oh yea, youth already have that.

But no, I wouldn't oppose making other obligations lower, but I think there are plenty there already. If you want to lower ALL the responsibilities of adulthood (and there aren't many that youth don't yet have), then by all means lets lower ALL the rights of adulthood like drinking, handgun ownership, the right to run for office, renting cars, fair insurance rates, etc.

	25-10-2004 18:22									#199
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there are a lot of responsibilities of adulthood that youth do not have defacto

like the fact that there parents still have to take care of them when they are 16

JM

	25-10-2004 18:25									#200
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Good, then give teens the right to leave home with no hassle at 16.

	25-10-2004 18:43									#201
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It's very unusual for 16 year olds to work FULL-TIME while going to high school though, isn't it?

	25-10-2004 19:06									#202
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I don't really see the reason for lowering the voting age. Ozzy, your arguments seem to rest on the exception rather than the rule. You claim that youths are tried as adults in court, make significant tax contributions, can join the military, etc, but you're painting with really broad brush strokes. What percentage of 16 and 17 year olds facing criminal charges are tried as adults? Of the $9.7 billion paid in taxes by teens, how much of that is by 16 and 17 year olds vs. 18 and 19 year olds? What about all the sales taxes paid by 13-16 (or even 10, 11 and 12!)year olds - why don't you want them to vote? The minimum age to join the military is 17, so that cuts out 16 year olds right there. And even at that, what's the average age of enlistment?

Frankly, I'd rather see the drinking age lowered and the age of enlistment raised to 18 and leave voting where it is.

	25-10-2004 21:10									#203
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun It's very unusual for 16 year olds to work FULL-TIME while going to high school though, isn't it?

Many teens work even during the school year, and everyone pays SS and medicare tax.

	25-10-2004 21:11									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I don't really see the reason for lowering the voting age.

I don't really see the reason for keeping it at 18.

	25-10-2004 21:13									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kontiki I don't really see the reason for lowering the voting age. I don't really see the reason for keeping it at 18.

You know what they say: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

	25-10-2004 21:14									#206
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So if it were, say, at 33, you wouldn't have a problem either?

	25-10-2004 21:28									#207
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At the end of the day, it's an arbirtrary line anyway since there's no magical "coming of age" event that happens at any age. Eighteen make sense though, because that's when most people graduate high school and are considered adults in many other facets.

Don't take this personally, Kuci. I have absolutely no doubt that you could make a more informed choice than most voters. But for every 16 year old like you, I would have no problem finding 10 or 20 that should not vote.

	25-10-2004 21:37									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So if it were, say, at 33, you wouldn't have a problem either?

But if the voting limit were 33 it would be broken so yes I'd have a problem with that. 33 is obviously too high. But IMO, the limit is not broken at 18.

	25-10-2004 22:15									#209
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Good, then give teens the right to leave home with no hassle at 16.

no

parents wuld need the right to kick their children out at 16, no hassle

instead, society and government expect the parents to take care of their chlidren well into their 20s

as long as that is the case, than children should not get the right to vote

JM

	25-10-2004 22:17									#210
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat But if the voting limit were 33 it would be broken so yes I'd have a problem with that. 33 is obviously too high. But IMO, the limit is not broken at 18.

IMO, it is