02-11-2004 11:05									#121
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis This could be old here, but I haven't seen it mentioned even thought you people are pretty political bunch. Not that I've read everything. http://www.betavote.com/ Pretty interesting, even the US has it 25 to 75 % there. What does that mean, if you are likely to find that site you'd rather vote Kerry? Now the people on the right here will without hesitatiton say "only the liberals have voted in that one!" Or they have cheated more etc... And the left will say it's proof of Kerrys ownage! So my guestion is, is that a good indicator of the views on the internet?

Moderates and leftists tend to be younger and more computer literate so you aren't getting a satistical sampling on that site. Also people can vote more then once so it's not very accurate.

	02-11-2004 11:06									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But anyway, the point is that this is something I merely suspect. I can't back it up that well. So it's an emotional decision on your part is what you are saying?

There's some reason behind it, (see what I posted above) but I think it might be a little based on emotion. I want to think that at least something good will come from a Kerry Presidency, so I hope that he will at least listen to the far left base on Gay Marriage once he's in office. He listens to them on everything else, anyway...

	02-11-2004 11:08									#123
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Niger and Pitcairn Island are the only countries voting for Bush!

	02-11-2004 11:11									#124
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis This could be old here, but I haven't seen it mentioned even thought you people are pretty political bunch. Not that I've read everything. http://www.betavote.com/ Pretty interesting, even the US has it 25 to 75 % there. What does that mean, if you are likely to find that site you'd rather vote Kerry? Now the people on the right here will without hesitatiton say "only the liberals have voted in that one!" Or they have cheated more etc... And the left will say it's proof of Kerrys ownage! So my guestion is, is that a good indicator of the views on the internet?

Internet polls are not at all reliable. If a liberal site wants to "prove" that foreigners support Kerry, they can tell their users to go vote 10 times for Kerry as an "Austrian" or whatever.

	02-11-2004 11:14									#125
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quote: There's some reason behind it, (see what I posted above)

The 'reason' is a streach. Just as much of a streach as someone saying Bush's statments that he'd accept civil unions is just a lie.

	02-11-2004 11:17									#126
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I honestly don't know why you're bothering me about this. Politicians have personal views different from the platforms they run on all the time.



Another thing I noticed about the betavote site, BTW:

Afghanistan has something like 3000 votes, or about 5 times as many as Japan. I doubt there are 5 times as many English-speaking Internet-literate Afghans as Japanese. I bet at least three quarters of the "Afghan" and "Iraqi" votes are cast by people from other countries.

	02-11-2004 11:18									#127
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I just wanted you admit that you are basing your view on the candidate based on emotion .

	02-11-2004 11:21									#128
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That doesn't really make sense, though. I want Kerry to lose, so why would I assign him a view I agree with?

	02-11-2004 11:23									#129
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'Cuz you were originally justifying Republican dirty tricks?

	02-11-2004 11:24									#130
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On the eve of the election, I beg of you, mis hermanos americanos:

Right the ship! Let's get back on the road of cooperation! Keep the progressive spirit of America alive!

And now, if you'll excuse me, I must trot out ol' trustworthy:

"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief-I am my brother's keeper, I am my sisters' keeper-that makes this country work. It's what allows us to pursue our individual dreams, yet still come together as a single American family. "E pluribus unum." Out of many, one."

-Barack Obama
___________________________________

Vote as you must, but know the outside world is not completely full of above-it-all smug-types. Some of us care.

Let me love you, America!

	02-11-2004 11:25									#131
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Um... nice work with the sig, Ramo.

That's what I get from being away from these fora for awhile.


Ah well... I'll leave my post up there for emphasis.

	02-11-2004 11:26									#132
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I do love GOP dirty tricks. They make elections exciting.



But seriously, I have thought that Kerry personally supports gay marriage for a while now. And that's a good thing.

	02-11-2004 11:35									#133
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Ramo, I like that Sig so much I made it mine too.



-Drachasor

	02-11-2004 11:39									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Moderates and leftists tend to be younger and more computer literate so you aren't getting a satistical sampling on that site. Also people can vote more then once so it's not very accurate.

Good points but...


Yes, but does being computer literate mean you are more like to use the internet?
If internet users are mostly moderates and leftist and younger, then of course the poll results are no surprise (well actually 11-88 is high but...). My question was and is about the internet.
Yeah I knew that "more than once" and other cheating would be mentioned, but I have no idea if the other side has or is willing to cheat more. I think people would be tempted to cheat with the small countries to get them look in favor of either candidate. Since they don't have many votes to beging with few cheated votes can make a difference.
They mentioned something about removing votes from certain country because they were from the same place, so they just might be even monitoring it.

I have a problem with blidly assuming that the other side has cheated more just because the results are slighty surprising, of course internet likes Kerry more but that much? The question still stands, and I'm also interested if someone has heard about this site and knows something other than just common sense/nonsense can tell (ie proof about their bias) and can make a good case for it being wrong.

I'm still surprised about the US numbers.

	02-11-2004 11:49									#135
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Consider this.

At http://www.gamespy.com there is a poll on whether you're looking forward to Halo 2 or Half-Life 2 more. The poll has been linked to by halo.bungie.org, planethalo.com, and bungie.net, the three biggest Halo fansites. Halo 2 is winning by a large margin. That's not because internet users necessarily like Halo more. It's because the Halo fansites are getting out the vote.

So an internet poll isn't even an accurate survey of internet users. It's only a semiaccurate survey of the people who care enough to go to that site.

	02-11-2004 12:02									#136
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Vote as you must, but know the outside world is not completely full of above-it-all smug-types. Some of us care. Let me love you, America!

Is that why Canadians shouldn't want to see a chicken-**** protectionist win?

	02-11-2004 12:05									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Consider this. At http://www.gamespy.com there is a poll on whether you're looking forward to Halo 2 or Half-Life 2 more. The poll has been linked to by halo.bungie.org, planethalo.com, and bungie.net, the three biggest Halo fansites. Halo 2 is winning by a large margin. That's not because internet users necessarily like Halo more. It's because the Halo fansites are getting out the vote. So an internet poll isn't even an accurate survey of internet users. It's only a semiaccurate survey of the people who care enough to go to that site.

Considered already.
Is this site circulated among the left portion of the net more? Linked to Kerry fan sites perhaps? Really? Why, because you don't like the results or you have some info we don't? Read the last part of my post again.
I already knew (and assume most people should) about making funny results by linking to certain sites, hell evil finn thread would have been much better example.

The fact that it CAN be done doesn't mean it was done in this situation

	02-11-2004 12:05									#138
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Is that why Canadians shouldn't want to see a chicken-**** protectionist win?

Are you talking about Bush? Because he has been a big supporter of tarrifs in order to get votes.

Kerry on the other hand, merely wants to close various loopholes throughout the tax code.

-Drachasor

	02-11-2004 12:07									#139
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Considered already. Is this site circulated among the left portion of the net more? Linked to Kerry fan sites perhaps? Really? Why, because you don't like the results or you have some info we don't? Read the last part of my post again. I already knew (and assume most people should) about making funny results by linking to certain sites, hell evil finn thread would have been much better example. The fact that it CAN be done doesn't mean it was done in this situation

Well then, consider this:

Which political affiliation would those interested in that site be likely to have. Kerry talks all the time about what the world thinks. Bush doesn't give a ****. So by extension, Bush supporters are probably not going to give a **** what the world thinks, so there's no reason they'd go to that site.

	02-11-2004 12:09									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Are you talking about Bush? Because he has been a big supporter of tarrifs in order to get votes. Kerry on the other hand, merely wants to close various loopholes throughout the tax code. -Drachasor

No, I'm wondering just what Kerry means by 'fair' trade.

Seems to me, that if someone else has an advantage based on goegraphy or demographics, it will be regarded as 'unfair' to Yanks.

Well guess what? You have advantages in certain fields, and other people have advantages in other fields.

'Fair' trade, to me, is a code word for protectionism.

	02-11-2004 12:14									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Well then, consider this: Which political affiliation would those interested in that site be likely to have. Kerry talks all the time about what the world thinks. Bush doesn't give a ****. So by extension, Bush supporters are probably not going to give a **** what the world thinks, so there's no reason they'd go to that site.

Well alright, you make a good point about Bush supporters not giving a **** about things, in this case my question or points and curiocity.


Too bad you missed this even when I said to look it up
Here you go:

The question still stands, and I'm also interested if someone has heard about this site and knows something other than just common sense/nonsense can tell (ie proof about their bias) and can make a good case for it being wrong.

	02-11-2004 12:16									#142
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The standard Democrat line about "fair trade" means about what you'd expect it to mean. They want other countries to have to enforce enviromental, worker, minimum wage, and pro-union laws in order to get prefered market access. Naturally third world countries don't want to do that because about the only advantage they have over the rich countries is that their people will work cheaper and their governments won't regulate businesses as much.

It plays well for the Democrate's base of union voters though.

	02-11-2004 12:16									#143
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Is that why Canadians shouldn't want to see a chicken-**** protectionist win?

Priorities, man.

Priorities.

	02-11-2004 12:18									#144
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, I'm wondering just what Kerry means by 'fair' trade. Seems to me, that if someone else has an advantage based on goegraphy or demographics, it will be regarded as 'unfair' to Yanks. Well guess what? You have advantages in certain fields, and other people have advantages in other fields. 'Fair' trade, to me, is a code word for protectionism.

You could take the time to read the policy before you judge it. Your reactionary drivel is unnecessary:

quote: Include Internationally Recognized Enforceable Labor Rights And Environmental Standards In New Free Trade Agreements. Over the last three years, we have moved backwards from the time when the United States ensured that labor provisions were included in the Jordan Agreement. As president, John Kerry will build upon and strengthen the progress made in the Jordan Agreement by including strong and enforceable labor rights and environmental standards in the core of new free trade agreements. Break Down Barriers In Key Export Markets. The Bush administration has done little to open key export markets in countries like Japan and Korea. For example, auto exports to Japan are still essentially blocked by complicated rules. As president, John Kerry will use all the available tools to fight to open these markets. Expand Trade Adjustment Assistance Programs. We need to expand the Trade Adjustment Assistance (TAA) programs to provide immediate relief for manufacturers, workers, and communities hurt by manufacturing imports, and integrate these programs with other workforce training programs. John Kerry supports expanding TAA to service sector workers who lose their jobs because of outsourcing.

Basically he is concerned about human rights in trading countries.

-Drachasor

	02-11-2004 12:20									#145
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Priorities, man. Priorities.

Is your priority being able to get a job?

	02-11-2004 12:20									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The standard Democrate line about "fair trade" means about what you'd expect it to mean. They want other countries to have to enforce enviromental, worker, minimum wage, and pro-union laws in order to get prefered market access. Naturally third world countries don't want to do that because about the only advantage they have over the rich countries is that their people will work cheaper and their governments won't regulate businesses as much. It plays well for the Democrate's base of union voters though.

The workers will still work cheaply with more rights and say in how things go. Giving them rights and ensuring some minimal protection of the environment and payment standards isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It could go overboard, sure, but give Kerry's record this isn't likely. It isn't like he is going to demand American wages in poor countries, just make sure that the workers aren't exploited.

-Drachasor

	02-11-2004 12:28									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Basically he is concerned about human rights in trading countries. -Drachasor

Bullshit.

I am very experienced with Yankee two facedness in trade.

Forests in Washington are privately owned. The foresters have to pay for the cost of ownership as part of the cost of their logs.

The foresters in BC cut trees on Crown land. The Crown charges them a fee for the trees. They also are forced to pay the price of reforestaion on those Crown lands.

You Yanks have enacted tarrifs against Canadian softwood lumber at least 4 times, and every time been told by relavant trade bodies that you are wrong. Most recently by the WTO.

Still, your government, at the urging of special interests, sees fit to regard British Columbia to have an unfair advantage over two bit foresters with a bunch of skank wood in Washington state. The tarrifs remain.

I've had a taste of Yankee 'fair' trade. I don't like it. I think Kerry will do a lot to make it worse, and I don't really want to have to shut off your natural gas in February to get your attention.

Understand?

	02-11-2004 12:32									#148
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And everything about Kerry's record and his platform (look at his views on how other countries violate trade standards) leads me to the conclusion he'd fix such problems.

On the other hand, Bush sure as heck isn't going to do anything to fix it.

-Drachasor

	02-11-2004 12:40									#149
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You're not explaining what 'fair' trade means.

The US 'outsources' a lot of jobs to Canada. That's because we have a large, educated population that will work for less than many Americans.

According to Kerry, he's going to erect a curtain along the 49th to stop that from happening.

How do you think that will work?

	02-11-2004 12:40									#150
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I've had a taste of Yankee 'fair' trade. I don't like it. I think Kerry will do a lot to make it worse, and I don't really want to have to shut off your natural gas in February to get your attention. Understand?

The soft wood issue has been a sticking point for some time but I could enumerate a few of Canada's trade inconsistancies if you'd like. I'm sure they're fewer then the current American administration's but they do exist.

BTW tI believe he Canadian government doesn't own the pipelines or the well heads so it would have a hard time shutting off the gas. The Canadian companies which run those opporations probably wouldn't like losing the majority of their revenue even if the government could find a way to control the gas supply.