02-11-2004 12:44									#151
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No, but the Government of Alberta sure as hell does own the gas that's in the ground, and damn well could turn off the tap.

Are you dumber than Tredeau?

	02-11-2004 12:45									#152
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You're not explaining what 'fair' trade means. The US 'outsources' a lot of jobs to Canada. That's because we have a large, educated population that will work for less than many Americans. According to Kerry, he's going to erect a curtain along the 49th to stop that from happening. How do you think that will work?

I believe you are confusing two different policy issues here. One is the "fair trade" mantra which dems have been calling for over the last decade and the other is the outsourcing issue. The democrat's version of fair trade is to make trading partners have the same worker, enviromental, wage, and union rights as 1st world countries have; which in my mind is not a good thing. The other is the claim that Bush gives tax breaks to companies which move opporations over seas.

Most of the moves over seas are due to market forces so they aren't likely to be motivated by a small tax break but it is stupid to encourage factories to shut down. Thus Kerry will repeal this minor tax loop hole and everyone will keep on outsourcing like nothing has happened.

	02-11-2004 12:45									#153
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I'd like to hear about our trade inconsistencies, btw.

	02-11-2004 12:47									#154
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"Fair Trade" is a common term, that you can easily find referenced and explain via google.

Basically it means that if a place has a lot of human rights violations, then Kerry is against giving prefered trade access with that country. Similar if the country exploits the workers (slave labor, lower wages then they ought to be getting given the economic clime there, etc), or exploits the environment too much.

There is give and take in this, but overall it isn't a bad idea necessarily.

-Drachasor

	02-11-2004 12:50									#155
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither No, but the Government of Alberta sure as hell does own the gas that's in the ground, and damn well could turn off the tap. Are you dumber than Tredeau?

Fair enough. However, I seriously doubt any government would get reelected by torpedoing one of the biggest industries in one of the few providences to give more tax money then they get from the national government.

There is also the issue of workers being laid off and getting their faces on the CBC nightly news, oil companies going bankrupt, and old folks losing their pensions because they’d invested their life savings into those companies’ stock, etc...

	02-11-2004 12:54									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I believe you are confusing two different policy issues here. One is the "fair trade" mantra which dems have been calling for over the last decade and the other is the outsourcing issue. The democrat's version of fair trade is to make trading partners have the same worker, enviromental, wage, and union rights as 1st world countries have; which in my mind is not a good thing. The other is the claim that Bush gives tax breaks to companies which move opporations over seas. Most of the moves over seas are due to market forces so they aren't likely to be motivated by a small tax break but it is stupid to encourage factories to shut down. Thus Kerry will repeal this minor tax loop hole and everyone will keep on outsourcing like nothing has happened.

I'm not confusing anything. I'm identifying an ideology that thinks Yanks are assured jobs by some divine right of God, or something.

You know, that Chinese worker has some disadvantages too. Sure he works cheap, but he or she is not so good with more advanced technology, by and large. Those jobs go to Yanks.

OTOH, he is paying to consume CocaCola, Charles Bronson, and Big Macs.

It's a big wide world, with a big wide economy, and the sooner Yanks adjust to the very thing they profess to want to have created the better off we all will be.

I don't see Kerry, or many other Democrats, as having adjusted.

	02-11-2004 12:57									#157
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Well, for starters we can talk about the softwood issue you already brought up. I know that back in January 2004 the WTO ruled against Canada and said that BC was indeed selling timber to local lumber mills at 67%-75% of their real market value. That's a 25%-33% subsidy for Canadian producers which isn't exactly very fair thus the continuing hubub with the US. Add in that their's over capicty at lumber mills in the US and it's an election year and you see why obscure soft wood processing laws become major international disputes.

	02-11-2004 13:00									#158
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I'd also like to bring up Canada's rather BS cultural purity laws which prevent US media outlets from rebroadcasting or even creating Canadian editions of their programs. This is clearly just a protectionist measure for the Macleans and CBC type corporations north of the 49th. With cable and satillite its not like spectrum space is at a premium any more so why is the Canadian government blocking broadcasting of networks like FOX News?

	02-11-2004 13:01									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Fair enough. However, I seriously doubt any government would get reelected by torpedoing one of the biggest industries in one of the few providences to give more tax money then they get from the national government. There is also the issue of workers being laid off and getting their faces on the CBC nightly news, oil companies going bankrupt, and old folks losing their pensions because they’d invested their life savings into those companies’ stoke, etc...

Somehow, I think it would take less than a week to get your attention when gas prices in Chicago went up 10 fold in a few days.

Maybe it's just me, but...

Never underestimate the pershncikityness of an Albertan when he or she thinks they are on the right side.

In a few years, the gas will still be in the ground, and should be more valuable than it is today.

	02-11-2004 13:08									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Well, for starters we can talk about the softwood issue you already brought up. I know that back in January 2004 the WTO ruled against Canada and said that BC was indeed selling timber to local lumber mills at 67%-75% of their real market value. That's a 25%-33% subsidy for Canadian producers which isn't exactly very fair thus the continuing hubub with the US. Add in that their's over capicty at lumber mills in the US and it's an election year and you see why obscure soft wood processing laws become major international disputes.

http://subscript.bna.com/SAMPLES/it...2b?OpenDocument

quote: The panel ruling--preliminarily issued in December--found that the U.S. determination, which was based on the U.S. International Trade Commission's assessment of an imminent and likely surge in imports, could not have been reached by an objective and unbiased investigating body, upholding Canada's arguments that the U.S. softwood lumber case is unwarranted, Peterson said in a statement (21 ITR 35, 1/1/04). "The WTO panel's message is clear. The countervailing and antidumping duties imposed by the United States on Canadian softwood lumber exports are baseless," he said.

	02-11-2004 13:10									#161
	Got spare money?

But the company who bought the rights to that gas in good faith and who paid to develop that field will have gone bankrupt. Not good economic policy.

	02-11-2004 13:11									#162
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http://www.usembassycanada.gov/cont...mber_011904.pdf

PDF article entitled "US Wins Key Issues in WTO Softwood Lumber Appeal." which is dated in Jan, 2004. I believe your article from Dec, 2003 is a bit dated now. Hmmm.

	02-11-2004 13:14									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'd also like to bring up Canada's rather BS cultural purity laws which prevent US media outlets from rebroadcasting or even creating Canadian editions of their programs. This is clearly just a protectionist measure for the Macleans and CBC type corporations north of the 49th. With cable and satillite its not like spectrum space is at a premium any more so why is the Canadian government blocking broadcasting of networks like FOX News?

Split run magazines were upheld by the arbiters of trade. We abide by their rulings. They are allowed.

	02-11-2004 13:17									#164
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In any event the soft wood issue has been around for 20 years and it's not going to change. The WTO keeps issuing conflicting rulings one says antidumping laws are bad then the next says antidumping laws are ok if the other guy is unfairly using subsidies. I don't see an end to thing unless BC states selling it's trees at market price.

	02-11-2004 13:17									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin But the company who bought the rights to that gas in good faith and who paid to develop that field will have gone bankrupt. Not good economic policy.

Tough.

They didn't buy the gas. They paid for a license to extract it.

It still belongs to the people of Alberta.

And somehow I doubt that Amoco is gonna go bankrupt because Klien tells them to turn off the tap from Alberta for a week or two.

	02-11-2004 13:19									#166
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Split run magazines were upheld by the arbiters of trade. We abide by their rulings. They are allowed.

Ok, so at least one trade issue has been solved. I'm thinking Softwood is the only really big one left.

	02-11-2004 13:23									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin In any event the soft wood issue has been around for 20 years and it's not going to change. The WTO keeps issuing conflicting rulings one says antidumping laws are bad then the next says antidumping laws are ok if the other guy is unfairly using subsidies. I don't see an end to thing unless BC states selling it's trees at market price.

Hahahahahahaha!

You get ruled against everytime it gets close to any panel. 3 or 4 times Canada backed off and negotiated because the people in charege are chicken ****. You only negotiated after your knew you'd lose.

It's only gone on for 20 years because Canucks were chumps, and the feds were willing to sacrifice the forestry industry for 'harmony', or something.

You want to know the funny thing? This time the foresters of BC wanted to settle and agree to a tarrif. Those in Quebec, Ontario, and elsewhere said **** that, we're taking it all the way.

You're going down. You and all your little tree freinds.

	02-11-2004 13:23									#168
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Tough. They didn't buy the gas. They paid for a license to extract it.

I've got a crisp new $1 that say this won't happen because the Canucks know the US has a half dozen different ways to get even if they want to. Trade wars seldom do anyone any good though but if we look at exposure the Canadian national economy is far more open to US counter moves then vis versa.

quote: And somehow I doubt that Amoco is gonna go bankrupt because Klien tells them to turn off the tap from Alberta for a week or two.

Most of the time the big guys intially develop the property but as the field ages and production starts to go down they often sell to small local companies who try to squeeze an extra 20 years of production out. It's those companies which will go bankrupt. That's just the nature of a high debt low margin business.

	02-11-2004 13:24									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ok, so at least one trade issue has been solved. I'm thinking Softwood is the only really big one left.

Mooooo!

	02-11-2004 13:24									#170
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I can't help it if you guys are poisoning people with mad cows.

Seriously, only the parts which are most likely to carry the infection are banned while the rest of the meat goes through.

	02-11-2004 13:30									#171
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I've got a crisp new $1 that say this won't happen because the Canucks know the US has a half dozen different ways to get even if they want to. Trade wars seldom do anyone any good though but if we look at exposure the Canadian national economy is far more open to US counter moves then vis versa. Most of the time the big guys intially develop the property but as the field ages and production starts to go down they often sell to small local companies who try to squeeze an extra 20 years of production out. It's those companies which will go bankrupt. That's just the nature of a high debt low margin business.

And you'd be wrong. There is only one thing more devastating to the US than Canada shutting you off from energy, gas, oil, electric....

That would be destructive warfare coiming to your shores, perhaps in the form of big bombs.

You really do not want to push it. Like I said, the gas will still be in the ground, and it'll be more valuable later, most likely.

	02-11-2004 13:32									#172
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The dollar is still out there is you want to take the bet.

	02-11-2004 13:33									#173
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maybe I'll bet a Euro.

	02-11-2004 13:49									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I can't help it if you guys are poisoning people with mad cows. Seriously, only the parts which are most likely to carry the infection are banned while the rest of the meat goes through.

Actually, there are large barriers to animals crossing. That is serious because Canadian ranchers sold to American slaugter houses. What do you think happens to the value of a Candian cow when half the buyers are eliminated?

Secondly, only boneless cuts can cross the border. That means that large parts of the average cow carcass are useless for cross broder trade. Candians can only eat so many ribs and hamburger. The rest gets wasted. Again, that depreciates the value of a Canadian cow.

You wanna own 4 sections of land and rely on cattle, and other ruminants, under these circumstances?

	02-11-2004 13:55									#175
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Final results are in from Dixville Notch, New Hampshire:
Bush 19 votes,
Kerry 7 votes

	02-11-2004 13:58									#176
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The same thing happened to the British and Irish beef industry when mad cow disease was found there.

	02-11-2004 14:01									#177
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It's a ***** it's been found in the US then too, eh?

	02-11-2004 14:02									#178
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In precisely a single animal on either side of the border.

	02-11-2004 14:08									#179
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Ok, imho, you have spent enough time in the Official United States Presidential Election Thread discussing relatively minor trade issues (especially given the overall scope of the elections).

I know I have no authority, but I think it is reasonable to make a new thread and move your debate there, guys.

-Drachasor

	02-11-2004 14:11									#180
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Screw you, Jack.

These are major issues, to me and most people who live within a thousand miles of me.

Now explain how Kerry is gonna make it all better, and not worse. Isn't that where it started?